English
Hello, guest.

Log In or
Register
Return to Forum
48 Messages
Page 1 of 3
Next »
Abbreviation query
Posted by Esme Nielsen
9/10/2008  6:39:00 PM
Good morning!
I have just found your website and am truly impressed by the information contained therein.
My husband and myself have just started ballroom dancing classes and manage to forget most of what we've learnt by the time we arrive back home! However, your website shows exactly what to do step-by-step BUT could you please tell me what CBMP stands for as it is in both the Quick Step and Fox Trot "Right foot forward in CBMP" and although it is probably so simple (and I've looked at the abbreviations list without success) I would be very pleased if you could let me know what this stands for.
Thanking you
Esme Nielsen
Re: Abbreviation query
Posted by nigelgwee
9/10/2008  8:43:00 PM
Hi! It stands for Contra Body Movement Position. On this website you can find its definition (and those of other terms) on: http://www.ballroomdancers.com/Learning_Center/Glossary/Default.asp?Letter=C
Re: Abbreviation query
Posted by terence2
9/11/2008  12:09:00 AM
Let me add a word of caution about the terminology.
Much of it may have more complex meaning than is implied by the printed word. CBMP is one.

May I suggest that you seek an expert
opinion on its practical application.
Re: Abbreviation query
Posted by anymouse
9/11/2008  9:19:00 AM
"BUT could you please tell me what CBMP stands for as it is in both the Quick Step and Fox Trot "Right foot forward in CBMP" and although it is probably so simple (and I've looked at the abbreviations list without success) I would be very pleased if you could let me know what this stands for."

Leaving aside the literal meaning, the practical implication of the term is that when you take these steps, which are generally the ones outside partner, your moving leg will need to swing diagonally across your body as it moves.

We call the position where it lands somewhat to the other side of the body "contra body movement position".
Re: Abbreviation query
Posted by terence2
9/11/2008  10:03:00 AM
You see.. this is why these types of responses can be very dangerous to the
beginning student.
Re: Abbreviation query
Posted by Telemark
9/12/2008  10:36:00 AM
You can't make sense of CBMP until you have got the hang of CBM, because CBMP is:

"The placing of the stepping foot, forward or back, onto or across the line of the other foot, giving the appearance of CBM having been used, but without turning the body."

This ought to be obvious enough, but CBMP is regularly used at the same time as CBM (which might appear to be a contradiction in terms, but isn't), and you need a good teacher to demonstrate and explain what is going on, and much more importantly, why.
Re: Learn the basics first
Posted by Ladydance
9/11/2008  11:11:00 AM
Hi Esme,
My advice is to not worry about CBM or CBMP just yet. Just learn your basic steps. Once you have them down pat and can do them without thinking, then you can start working on technique. You and your husband have to get the hang of following and leading, no small feat, I assure you. Dancing is meant to be fun, not an exercise in frustration.
Re: Learn the basics first
Posted by Telemark
9/12/2008  1:22:00 PM
This is good advice. Your teacher will introduce these important technique concepts when you are ready to benefit from their application. Be aware of CBMP, by all means, but don't worry about it. CBM, particularly, will naturally develop as you attain the ability to move freely, and you learn to let your body movement determine where you are going, rather than be moved by your feet (it might sound unlikely to an inexperienced dancer, but one of the key reasons we move our feet at all while we dance, is simply that we would fall over if we didn't).

One of the easiest figures in which to see CBMP at work is a chasse from promenade position following a whisk (waltz). Both man and lady are facing each other, and yet both step forward (and across) in CBMP, but don't collide. This is CBMP (and, of course, promenade position) at work. There are lots of basic dance movements/actions which have to be learned; but once you have started to develop as a dancer, you come to realise that you have quietly assimilated them without effort, or even being aware of what is happening.

Find a good teacher. Be guided by their experience and your constant practice.
Re: Abbreviation query
Posted by anymouse
9/11/2008  2:38:00 PM
"You can't make sense of CBMP until you have got the hang of CBM, because CBMP is"

I would strongly disagree.

You need to understand both to understand the derivation of the terms and why they are linked in naming but independent in usage, but you don't need to bother with that to use them.

In simple practical terms:

CBM = rotating your body "into" the moving leg

CBMP = swinging your moving leg diagonally across your body

Re: Abbreviation query
Posted by Telemark
9/11/2008  11:40:00 PM
Be aware of CBMP, by all means, but don't worry about it.


=

... but you don't need to bother with that to use them.


What do you disagree with?
Re: Abbreviation query
Posted by anymouse
9/12/2008  8:14:00 AM
"What do you disagree with?"

I disagree with the idea presented in what I quoted, which in its entirety was:

"You can't make sense of CBMP until you have got the hang of CBM, because CBMP is"

The disagreement is specifically with this idea that you can only understand CBMP in relation to CBM.

It's false - they are seperate concepts and it's easier to learn what each really means on its own, than to worry about why some dance teachers once, perhaps unwisely, named one in allusion to the other.

CBMP is the moving foot placed diagonally across the body.

CBM is rotating the body into the moving leg.
Re: Abbreviation query
Posted by Telemark
9/12/2008  9:44:00 AM
No, that won't do - it's an inadequate definition of CBMP, and it is important to add the rest:

giving the appearance of CBM having been used, but without turning the body."


I wouldn't advocate anyone getting hangups about understanding concepts that they are not "ready" for, but if you/we/anyone is going to offer an explanation or definition, it should be correct.

I am happy to agree to disagree: I can't see there is anything I can usefully add to my previous posts.
Re: Abbreviation query
Posted by anymouse
9/12/2008  10:32:00 AM
"No, that won't do - it's an inadequate definition of CBMP"

I was not attempting to define the term, I was explaining it's practical impact in an accessible way.

"and it is important to add the rest:

giving the appearance of CBM having been used, but without turning the body."

No, THAT is where you start confusing people.

Practically speaking, when a step is described as in CBMP, it means that it is placed diagonally across your body to the other side.

The other paramaters of the step description will tell you if you should, or should not be rotating.

And the reason it is important to treat those seperately is that your insistence on using the formal definition would lead one to believe that CBMP and rotating cannot coincide when in fact they can. Then we have to explain that the coinciding rotation must not be the source of the CBMP. And we get into arguments with quite established teachers who never managed to understand that particular aspect of the formal definition.

Which is why I revert the the practical explanation, NOT the formal definition, because it is something that should be approachable by all dancers from the start:

CBMP is the moving foot placed diagonally across the body.

CBM is rotating the body into the moving leg.
Re: Abbreviation query
Posted by Telemark
9/12/2008  10:35:00 AM
Let's just disagree. The established technique is what it is, and I continue to think that your simplified description misses an important element (that, without doubt, an examiner would expect to be correctly explained).

I'm not confusing anyone: or at least no one has said that they are confused by anything that I have written.
Re: Abbreviation query
Posted by anymouse
9/12/2008  11:04:00 AM
"Let's just disagree. The established technique is what it is, and I continue to think that your simplified description misses an important element (that, without doubt, an examiner would expect to be correctly explained)."

The target audience was not examiners, but dance students.

If you are writing a textbook you need to understand exactly when to use one term vs. another.

But if you are reading a book as a beginner in the subject, you first need a clear understanding of what to do when you read each term (that some expert has already decided applies to the step you are reading about).

CBMP tells you where to put your foot, across your body towards the other side.

Seeing that it says CBMP cannot tell you anything about about the presence or absence of body rotation, because that is a fully independent factor. You can have CBMP with rotation or CBMP without rotating, so bringing rotation into an attempt to explain CBMP causes confusion, not clarity.
Re: Abbreviation query
Posted by jofjonesboro
9/12/2008  1:29:00 PM
And the reason it is important to treat those seperately is that your insistence on using the formal definition would lead one to believe that CBMP and rotating cannot coincide when in fact they can.


I see no reason whatsoever that what you call the formal definition "would lead one to believe" that CBMP and rotational movement are mutually exclusive.

Seeing that it says CBMP cannot tell you anything about about the presence or absence of body rotation, because that is a fully independent factor. You can have CBMP with rotation or CBMP without rotating, so bringing rotation into an attempt to explain CBMP causes confusion, not clarity.


Not only does the second quotation contradict the first one but you're the first person to use the words "rotating" and "rotation" in this thread.

Odd.

jj

Re: Abbreviation query
Posted by Telemark
9/12/2008  1:21:00 PM
To change topic, a bit, I'm a bit disappointed that no one took the bait:

CBM, particularly, will naturally develop as you attain the ability to move freely, and you learn to let your body movement determine where you are going, rather than be moved by your feet (it might sound unlikely to an inexperienced dancer, but one of the key reasons we move our feet at all while we dance, is simply that we would fall over if we didn't).


We could have had some fun with that ...
Re: Abbreviation query
Posted by anymouse
9/12/2008  2:44:00 PM
"I see no reason whatsoever that what you call the formal definition "would lead one to believe" that CBMP and rotational movement are mutually exclusive."

Really? Perhaps you need to reread that definition where it says (in the version posted here)

"giving the appearance of CBM having been used, but without turning the body"

I think it's quite counterintuitive that you can rotate while doing something that has "without turning" in it's definition. The issue is not the difference between rotating and turn, the issue is that CBMP is define to not be a result of rotation during the step, however rotation can also occur as long as it is not the cause of the CBMP.

"Not only does the second quotation contradict the first"

It does not in anyway contradict it!

"one but you're the first person to use the words "rotating" and "rotation" in this thread."

The issue is not between the loose usage of "turn" and my choice of the more precise "rotate" but that the issue of lack of rotation (or turn if you prefer) is part of the definition of CBMP as an element, but does not restrict it's application.

CBMP is independent of turn and rotation, because CBMP is defined not to be the result of them.

But the inexperienced person trying to puzzle out dancing from the definitions would mistakenly conclude that CBMP is incompatible with rotation.

CBMP and CBM are fundamentally independent - the connection is in the historic derivation of their names, not in their execution or application.
Re: Abbreviation query
Posted by jofjonesboro
9/12/2008  6:09:00 PM
Your problem in this matter lies in your refusal to understand that the entire sentence is the definition of CBMP, not just the final phrase on which you keep focusing.

From Telemark above: "The placing of the stepping foot, forward or back, onto or across the line of the other foot, giving the appearance of CBM having been used, but without turning the body."

In simple, CBMP is a placement of the foot. The only reference to CBM is to make the point that this step resembles action in the CBM, the only mention of turning is to clarify the visual effect.

Yes, we all know that you can have rotation and CBMP in the same movement. When you do so, the result is known as CBM.



jj
Re: Abbreviation query
Posted by anymouse
9/12/2008  6:18:00 PM
"Yes, we all know that you can have rotation and CBMP in the same movement. When you do so, the result is known as CBM. "

Which is true, but not at all what you'd expect after reading:

"The placing of the stepping foot, forward or back, onto or across the line of the other foot, giving the appearance of CBM having been used, but without turning the body."

For proof of the frequent confusion this causes, you need only look at past discussions right here - we've regularly had people mistakenly insisting based on that that CBMP steps cannot also have CBM.

But more importantly, the reason I maintain it's unecessary to bring this into the answer to a beginner question is that a beginner dancer does not need to know when to say a step can or cannot be considered to be be placed CBMP, they need to know what to do when an expert has written that it should be placed in CBMP.

They don't need to know what does and does not qualify for the term, they need to know what they should do when they read it. What they should do is place their foot across to the other side of their body. To find out if they should or shouldn't be turning (rotating) their body, they will have to look to other parts of the step description.
48 Messages
Page 1 of 3
Next »
Copyright © 1997-2014 BallroomDancers.com