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Re: Unfair judging
Posted by Laura
4/4/2005  10:34:00 AM
There have been some interesting and valid points made here, but there's one thing I'd like to add. It might not be true in this case, but I've seen some accusations of "unfair judging" can really be unfounded if the person making the accusation really understood how the system of combining the judge's marks to produce the final score worked.

I was at USDSC one year and a Pro was looking at the marks he and his Student received in a Pro/Am event and he was telling her that he couldn't understand from looking at the marks why she placed so low. I happened to be standing next to them at the board where all the marks were hung. She asked him a question about how the places were computed, and when he started to explain them to her it seemed to me he didn't really know what he was talking about. After a few minutes of this I explained how the skating system works, and all of a sudden their point of view changed from "We was robbed, it's all politics!" to "Wow, this event was close, the marks were all over the place, and we got the short end of the stick mathematically today. But look how close it was, we did great!"
Re: Unfair judging
Posted by Ahnungsloser
12/4/2005  3:40:00 PM
Don't waste energy on speculating what judges could have done wrong, instead find out how to improve your dancing. This will hopefully bring you to a level, where even the seemingly most hostile judges will reward your performance with good marks.

Don't forget, that good dancing alone doesn't make a winner, how to you enter the dancefloor, how do you behave during the complete competition (and even between competitions), every little detail is adding to the picture you create of yourself in the small dancing community.

Ahnungsloser

PS: Learn to be a good looser, and once you maybe start winning, even more important, learn to be a good and fair winner.
Re: Unfair judging
Posted by Don
12/4/2005  8:47:00 PM
Unhappy. You certainly started something with your question. I would add one more thing. How does a judge sleep at night . Easy , They don't even look at you to compair. They wouldn't have a clue how you may have danced, you might just as well not be their. Here's a good one for you. A professional I know very well told me that in a competition he took part in, four of the judges were his pupils.
Re: Unfair judging
Posted by Ihavetosay...
12/6/2005  6:57:00 AM
My 5 year old participates in Karate cometitions that involve several Karate schools around the state. Knowing that it is "human nature" to tend to score your students higher, the judges panel is comprised of one judge per school....to KEEP IT FAIR. Why, then, does ballroom not enforce a commmon sense rule that a kids Karate competion recognizes? I do not understand.
Re: Unfair judging
Posted by Anonymous
12/6/2005  11:54:00 AM
"My 5 year old participates in Karate cometitions that involve several Karate schools around the state. Knowing that it is "human nature" to tend to score your students higher, the judges panel is comprised of one judge per school....to KEEP IT FAIR. Why, then, does ballroom not enforce a commmon sense rule that a kids Karate competion recognizes? I do not understand."

Because except in rare cases there is simple mapping of dance schools to competitors. The IDSF does have a rule about only one judge per country at their international events; problem is England still has maybe 80% of the good judges, so this wastes a lot of badly needed expertise.
Re: Unfair judging
Posted by Anonymous
12/6/2005  11:54:00 AM
no simply mapping
Re: Unfair judging
Posted by Ihavetosay
12/6/2005  4:10:00 PM
Anonymous, why would you need to map a school to a student? Wouldn't it suffice to just set up a regulation that you cannot have more than one judge from a school judging a heat? That way, "conflict of interest" would be less of an issue (I believe this was already mentioned in this thread). To expand on your analogy on international competitions, there may exist some schools that have more than one highly qualified judge; however, in the promotion of good sportsmanship, wouldn't the industry wish to deliver a fair competition? In the original scenario (a college comp from 2004), everyone loses: the winners, the losers, the judges, the competition promoters....
Re: Unfair judging
Posted by Anonymous
12/6/2005  9:21:00 PM
You seem to think it's more important to eliminate the appearance of bias than to have qualified judges. If all the qualified judges in a town work at one studio (not unlikely) then most of the judges should be from that studio. Only way to get better than that is to have the budget to bring in even better outsiders.
Re: Unfair judging
Posted by Ihavetosay
12/7/2005  5:39:00 AM
My argument is that it is an actual bias, not just an appearance of bias. In the original complaint, a school had three judges on the panel and the debate was that their students won due to favoritism. I see your point about expense; however, this competition was in the Boston area, how difficult would it have been to have a diverse panel? This is an interesting topic; unfortunately, my margins on this thread seem to be narrowing, so I will have to sign off.
Re: Unfair judging
Posted by Onlooker
12/8/2005  7:11:00 PM
Happy. This is a never ending story. I'll start with, I went to a seminar where most of the people there were professionals. The discussion got around to judging. I was most suprised when one of the speakers said. We have all been judging somewhere along the line where an organiser has sided up and told us who they expect to win. I was at a small comp. many years ago where the sole judge, judged, did his own scrutineering and recalled the couples for the next round himself. To me it seemed very apparent that he did n't trust the organiser. The judge was Guy Howard. that's right he wrote one of the books.Another time the sole judge was Len Scriverner. His method was to walk among the couples and tap a couple on the shoulder, which meant leave the floor. The last six standing were the finalist. He did the same in the final. This was a one dance competition. I was present when a very famous dancer and judge, who also wrote a book, after a major competition was telling a professional competitor that they were not the marks he submitted. He was telling him that he marked him in every round up to the semi final.Those marks were not there. As I started off with The never ending story.
One way with judging which could make it a bit more honest would be as was done in South Africa. I have a copy of the marks from the first round to the final. Five judges, two were rotated for each of the dances. Not heats but every dance. I think that the judges should be drawn, from a hat, if you like, just before each event. One last piece, I have a friend who was told he would't make the final this year six weeks ahead of the competition in which he had finished second two years in a row. She was right. He had not kept his lessons up. I dont know if there can be a remedy. But I do know why so many people leave the competition field.

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