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Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Anonymous
1/27/2006  5:09:00 PM
Jerry, no offense but dancing SQQ foxtrot with foot closure is downright silly. SSQQ foxtrot does a much better job of building the skills needed for SQQ continuinty than SQQ foot closure would.

As for the prep step issue, you are obviously watching the american clips while everyone else is watching the new international foxtrot clips.

Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by jerryblu
1/27/2006  8:20:00 PM
1. No offense at all.

2. You are entirely correct; I was watching the american clips. Somehow, I thought that the discussion was focussing on them, not the Int'l. Sorry.

3. Maybe silly, but Sqq with foot closure was how I started my learning. I didnt do natural turns for a long time, only reverse turns. I couldnt figure out why they were called reverse and why the right turn was natural.

Jerry
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Anonymous
1/27/2006  5:27:00 PM
"The slow of the international foxtrot is the swing of the whole foot from it's back position to it's forward position"

Actually no. It is formally defined to be from the time that the feet pass to the time that the feet pass.

Count frames in the video. I get something like 1: 19 2: 23 3: 20

If the video is NTSC rate, that's 1 measure of a 29 mpm foxtrot - but are the proportions correct?
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Quickstep
1/27/2006  6:00:00 PM
Foxy.I hope we are dicussing the International Foxtrot, I know absolutely nothing of the American Style. With your count of 1234 is the 1.2. the Preperation Step, Which will have you taking the 1st of the Feather on 34. If a preperation Step is taken on the &. The count becomes & with the & coming from 4 The count is & 1234. I hope that this is not to confusing. Our aim is to get a Prep step which allows us to take off on 1.2. on the first of the Feather and not 3.4. So we Prep step on 3.4. Which can also be called 7.8.The problem now is after a Change of Direction if we take the 3rd step as described we will be stepping out of phrase with the music as it is being played today.. Just my thoughts but years ago the music was not recorded as it is today. Today it is easy to pick up a count of 5678, if we use 78 as the Prep Step then we have 1.2. free for our Feather. Just to throw more fat on the fire. Look at the Tango. It is supposed to be 2/4 tempo. You are more likely to run into a 4/4 tempo.Just pick one step , a Four Step If you do it to 2/4 its fine. If you do a Four Step to 4/4 you will be out of time with the music. So they now do a Five Step instead. One of our leading teachers whilst in Europe acually asked one of the big orchestra leaders why 4/4. The answer was the buying public did not like 4/4. In fact they had to recall a disc and take out the 2/4 Tango and replace it with a 4/4. Just remembering that they are selling to others as well as ballroom dancers.. >
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Anonymous
1/27/2006  6:25:00 PM
It's so funny when dancers who've never played in a dance orchestra toss around time signatures ignorantly.

Music has many units. Always has, always will. Sometimes they are easier to hear than others, some are better at hearing them than others. Some dancers are bothered if their dancing doesn't fit the units, others are not.

Those that care either use the wrong amount of time per figure to force fit them (beginners) or use the right timings, and select a combination of figures that fit the music as a group, even if they may have a syncopated relationship to it at some instants - then dance in a way that makes the syncompation intentional and not unfortunate.
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Waltz123
1/27/2006  9:03:00 PM
The foxtrot is a good demonstration of the step swing drift principle,but if you turn the sound off and count the timing you will come up with qqs and not sqq.
Really? I almost see more of a QSQ.

The most likely cause of this is the fact that we filmed these clips without music. When there's no music playing, one tends to (or at least, *I* tended to) focus more on the movement than the timing. This was especially noticeable on a couple of the impetus clips that never made the cut, where we hovered way too long.

About half-way through day 1 of filming, we started noticing that there was a tendency (not just with us, but with everybody) for the narrater to follow rather than lead the dancers, so it was decided that it would be smarter to run a metronome in the background. This helped quite a bit. But Int'l Foxtrot was long over by then.

Now as to that silly generalization about dancers in the U.S.A... I should point out that my standard teacher, who was born, raised, and trained in the UK, was there to supervise our dancing on the day of the shoot. So any mistakes I may have made, or shortcomings in my dancing in general (and I'm sure there are plenty) are either the result of English training, or were simply missed on the day of the shoot. You decide.

Regards,
Jonathan
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Anonymous
1/27/2006  9:36:00 PM
"Now as to that silly generalization about dancers in the U.S.A... I should point out that my standard teacher, who was born, raised, and trained in the UK, was there to supervise our dancing on the day of the shoot."

The devil is in the details, details of a level so basic that they cannot productively be commented on when there isn't a month or two of time available to experment with them before the critical peformance. If you listen to the things that leading English coaches repeatedly try to change when brought over to teach top students, and then compare that to the conflicting beliefs of most non-English competitors, it's clear which tradition these clips illustrate. It's not that the English students are better, it's just that they get pushed on these things day in and day out for a decade or so before it sinks in, wheras the rest of us hear it only every few months, or worse, get a second or third hand version.
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Waltz123
1/27/2006  10:17:00 PM
Interesting. What makes you assume we spent only a month or two learning standard?
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Dave
1/28/2006  6:34:00 AM
Thanks to Foxky I think I finaly understand the foxtrot timing. You mignt say that the timing is (RF)slow,(LF)q,(RF)q, which would be correct if you could move your (RF) with your (RF) but since you have to use your standing leg the (LF) then the correct timing is (LF)slow-O,(RF)q,(LF)q. The (RF) the one that drifts outside partner does not enter the equation untill you put your weigt on it and then it becomes the slow of the next step. Foxy when looking at the feet on a vidio you are looking at the wrong feet thats why you get qqs.
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Anonymous
1/28/2006  8:14:00 AM
"Interesting. What makes you assume we spent only a month or two learning standard?"

Not the assumption at all.

What makes you assume having your coach present at the recording insures that it represents any particular style?

The differences I see between this classically american interpretation and the English style are not things that could be changed by a few comments before a video shoot, so a teacher would not mention them at that time. They are the kinds of changes to fundamental methods that would require several months of experimentation to achieve that specific goal - even when the teachers do ask for them, they have to ask over and over because most skilled US dancers either will not change, or quickly change back to what is comfortable and has achieved their competition results so far.

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