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To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by Quickstep
10/31/2006  5:57:00 PM
Hey you guy who are into physics. If I twist my spine on a dance step am I trying to go in two different directions at the same time. Am I signaling one thing to my partner plus another at the same time. Why not ask her.
What brought this to my attention was a comment made by one of the judges on our Dancing with the Stars who just happens to be a former World Finalist and at the present a Blackpool judge.
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by Anonymous
10/31/2006  7:26:00 PM
"Hey you guy who are into physics."

Twisting the spine / around the spine should not be done not done to create torque!

It is done to keep the body shaped to the partner while moving both bodies in a direction which doesn't happen to match the seperation between the partner's centers.

"If I twist my spine on a dance step am I trying to go in two different directions at the same time."

No, but you are trying to shape in one direction (towards your partner) while moving both of you in another direction.

"Am I signaling one thing to my partner plus another at the same time."

Yes, but they don't overlap. You signal connection and you signal movement. The directions don't have to match - in most dance figures they can't.

Confusing your partner is not good of course. But twisting around your spine does not necessarily mean confusing your partner if you do the proper way. Indeed, it is a basic element that makes many of the linear movements in ballroom possible. Without it (watch the couples who refuse to ulitize it) you end up having to curve many things around each other, instead of simply moving together in the intended direction. Some finds those curves aestheticaly pleasing. Others have a use for curve now and then, but like to be able to dance the numerous straight line figures along the straight lines of progression as they have been written.
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by Anonymous
11/1/2006  1:50:00 PM
Anonymous. To me it would seem that you aren't using CBMP correctly. That is the way I stay with my partner on those outside steps. I do not twist my spine nor is it necessary to twist my spine. Unless I want to visit the Physiotherapist.
CBMP. How many people think that they are performing CBMP. When what they do is only a poor CBM. Also the older a person is the worse it gets. Simple test, third step of the Feather. The second step is in place, shoulder leading. Put the right leg through which is a foot position only. Do it without twisting the spine. Then see how much easier it is to go into a Reverse.
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by Anonymous
11/2/2006  6:17:00 AM
There are two sorts of twists - good ones and bad ones.

Bad twists occur when the topline is in the right orientation, but the hips are not. Failure to achieve a good outside partner CBMP position in the hips would be a prime example.

Good twists occur when the hips and top are both in the proper positions, but the reality of the figure means that those positions cannot match. Some examples would be promenade (though some of the masters will keep their hips remarkably parallel to their partner's throughout). Another example would be reverse CBM actions, in which both hips and shoulders have to rotate, but can't rotate at exactly the same time. The hip has to rotate first as the CBM step is initiated, but the topline cannot rotate until the later part of the step or the offset in the hold would be reversed.
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by phil.samways
11/2/2006  9:01:00 AM
I must say one thing - twisting the spine (ny which i mean rotating the shoulders on the verrtical axis)does not result in a visit to the physiotherapist. Not if it's done sensibly and with otherwise good posture (which would be the case with reasonably competent dancers). We do it all the time in our everyday life (twist the spine - NOT visit the physiotherapist!). Curving and twisting (as in reaching into the back of the car from the driver's seat)can of course be dangerous
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by Anonymous
11/2/2006  4:18:00 PM
Anonymous. John Wood went to great lengths to explain how the shoulders timing is different to the S Q Q S that the feet are doing. This was on the Feather Step.
On a Reverse in the Foxtrot If your hip rotated before your shoulder wouldn't you finish with your right elbow not being in front of your body. As we both know both elbows should be in front of your rib cage and should stay there, If your hip gets in front of your shoulder you have problems. All sorts of things happen. Not square across the shoulders. Possibly the right elbow could drop. No end of problems. These are thing that judges look for.
If you can get a good CBMP on the third of the feather. Forget about the CBM following it will happen without trying.
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by Rha
11/3/2006  2:56:00 AM
"Another example would be reverse CBM actions, in which both hips and shoulders have to rotate, but can't rotate at exactly the same time. The hip has to rotate first as the CBM step is initiated, but the topline cannot rotate until the later part of the step or the offset in the hold would be reversed."

I find your CBM action in a reverse turning movement intriguing. Can you describe in a little more detail how you produce this action, hips rotate 1st, topline rotates later? tx

Rha
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by phil.samways
11/3/2006  4:19:00 AM
Last night i wanted to check something on the foxtrot reverse turn, so i put on the foxtrot lecture from this year's congress in Blackpool. William Pino giving the lecture.
At the end of his lecture he dances the same steps to different styles of foxtrot music. And suddenly i thought of the shoulder 'twist' discussion. So i looked carefully. And there, right under the nose of the camera, was a whole load of shoulder 'twist' (done beautifully, of course). No way were the shoulders in line with the hips. for example, he came out in promenade without any change in alignment in the hold, yet his hips rotated at least 45 degrees. Happened all over the place. The 'shoulders in line with hips at all times' argument is dead in the water as far as i'm concerned (it's the foxtrot to "schindler's list" where he's dancing right under the camera).
By the way, he arches his back a lot too, and he uses the thumbs-up hold
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by phil.samways
11/3/2006  4:32:00 AM
Actually, go to this link, (William Pino teaching videos)and look at the pictures on the video covers
http://www.dancesport.uk.com/video/index.htm
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by Rha
11/3/2006  4:49:00 AM
Phil,

Agreed, the shoulders can rotate more/ less than the hips. I don't think it's a straight forward yes/no answer. Why, when, where, how much and how is important don't you think.

Rha
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