"For example, the technique book says "lower end of 3" (this would be for 1-2-3 natural turn, for example)without saying exactly when this is."

That is lower at the end of STEP three, not the end of BEAT three.

Even if you make the assumption that each step takes exactly one beat, there is absolutely zero evidence to suggest that beats align with steps. In fact, there is a lot of evidence to suggest that steps begin and end somewhere around halfway through each beat - that would put the weight change which is approximately the midway action of each step on the downbeat, and would have us counting steps in terms of beats as and-one, and-two, and-three.

In another thread somewhere, we agreed that the technique book doesn't define the relationship between steps and beats.
So i dance the way virtually all dancers do - plant my right foot (as in right foot forward at the 'start' of waltz natural turn)on beat 1. By the technique book this is halfway through step 1, but that doesn't matter. I'm not going to drive myself (and my partner)bananas by trying to step on beat 1&. The judges wouldn't like it either

Anonymous.There is an and at the end of three. You have put an and count at the beginning of one which belongs with the bar of music just gone.
Just something alse to argue about. There are teachers who very sucessfull teach at a very high level, who count the Foxtrot in threes, thats steps. Have Fun.

"Anonymous.There is an and at the end of three."

There is an "and" at the end of beat three, but there is not one at the end of step three - because that part of the music belongs to the following step one.

"You have put an and count at the beginning of one which belongs with the bar of music just gone."

You need to read more carefully. I put the and count after beat three at the begining of STEP 1. If you wish step 1 to land squarely on beat 1, then the part of step 1 that takes place before the foot lands (which is about half of the step!) must take place before beat one... which is to say, during the later portion of beat three.

The fundamental source of confusion is a misunderstanding of what a "STEP" is in the language of ballroom. In the language of ballroom technique, a "STEP" is the action from one foot passing to the next foot passing (or half closure in the case of a closing step). It is not the action from one landing to the next!

Now you can of course invent your own language for talking to your friends and use the words any way you want. But if you are going to do that, you have to translate all recommendations written in terms of the standardized langauge of ballroom technique into the langauge of Anna - and that means moving the numbers around, since Anna steps are halfway offset from Alex Moore steps.

Just something alse to argue about. There are teachers who very sucessfull teach at a very high level, who count the Foxtrot in threes, thats steps. Have Fun.

"Just something alse to argue about. There are teachers who very sucessfull teach at a very high level, who count the Foxtrot in threes, thats steps. Have Fun."

Indeed - that is precisely how the figures are written. And those are obviously not beats for the foxtrot. Nor are the beats for the waltz, evne though there happen to be three steps and also three beats, they don't match. Just look at the chasse - it has four actions plus one followup - but I don't recall any waltz with four unequal beats in a measure!

Hi anonymous
i don't know whether there are 2 anonymii or 1.
Anyway, i think you're trying to confuse us.
Anna's steps will not be halfway offset from Alex Moore's steps because Alex Moore never specified when the steps would take place relative to the music. You've agreed to this before.
""""Just look at the chasse - it has four actions plus one followup - but I don't recall any waltz with four unequal beats in a measure!"""""
What do you mean?? A chassis can be danced 1,&,2,3 or 1,2,&3 or possibly even 1,2,3,& - all of these are 4 actions in 3 beats. Everyone does syncopated steps. What does your comment mean?

"""""Just look at the chasse - it has four actions plus one followup - but I don't recall any waltz with four unequal beats in a measure!"""""
What do you mean?? A chassis can be danced 1,&,2,3 or 1,2,&3 or possibly even 1,2,3,& - all of these are 4 actions in 3 beats. Everyone does syncopated steps. What does your comment mean?"

The rise and fall is specified in terms of the FOUR STEPS, not in terms of the THREE BEATS. Obviously in that case shows that beats and steps are not the same thing.

Nor are they the same thing in a natural turn - you just get confused because their are three of each and they may take the same amount of time - but the DO NOT LINE UP. Instead, the beats land roughly in the middle of the steps, maybe a little earlier - but steps do not being anywhere near on the beat, because there is quite a bit that needs to happen between the beginning of a step and when it lands.

Anonymous. So beat one. Then foot lands, now let me see is it in between that and the second beat. We are not even considering the step before which would have its own problems. Are you saying we have step and then the musical beat of one. Or are you saying that the music beats one and sometime after we step one. Do you realise how ridiculace this sounds looks and is . Why would anybody try to seperate the steps from the beats, unless they aren't capable of hearing the beats. The count remains 1 and 2 and 3 and. The and cannot come from the beat which has not struck ,it is always part of the beat that is still ringing.

"Anonymous. So beat one. Then foot lands, now let me see is it in between that and the second beat. We are not even considering the step before which would have its own problems. Are you saying we have step and then the musical beat of one. Or are you saying that the music beats one and sometime after we step one. Do you realise how ridiculace this sounds looks and is ."

You are missing one simple fact which is preventing you from understanding this.

A STEP DOES NOT BEGIN WHEN THE FOOT IS PLACED.

Instead, a step is DEFINED to begin when the feet pass. That means that the placement of the foot is closer to the MIDDLE of the step than it is to the begining. And similarly, the downbeat would be close to the middle of the step if it is to match the strike of the foot.

This is the universal language of ballroom technique, long established now in tradition. You don't have to use it yourself, but if you choose not to, you will have to translate written references between this language and whatever idea of what a "step" is that you have personally chosen to use.

You can't go on igonring the difference in defitinions, or you will not be making any sense.

Anonymous. The step does not begin when the foot is placed.
Shouldn't you be saying that the step begins when the music starts to play. The way it is interpreted is another thing. I've yet to see anybody dancing before the music starts. I don't know what you do . But I listen to the four bar introduction to gauge the tempo and I expect to move onto my first step which will coincide with the music.
Alex did actually say in his book," The time value of the step". If that is not talking about music then what is.
I think I can see where you are coming from. You are saying that the foot that is behind has to move early and in front of the beat to arrive on the beat. But it will arrive on the beat regardless of where it started. Feet together for instance. Then we might have feet together to feet together. I think you will find that it was intended that the foot arrives on the beat. Arrive before you are out of time. Arrive late you are out of time. If you are in a competition and it gets known among the judges ( they do talk ) That you are not usually with the beat you will get yourself crucified and rightly so.
Heres one for you. In the Samba which part of the foot is touching the floor dead on the beat.