"Anonymous. I'm beginning to beleive that you may be turning into your step at the beginning and not at the end. Like turn at the end of one . Don't turn at the beginning."

This is precisely where the twist comes from - you can't turn the topline until the end of one, but you do need to have a hint of turn somewhere at the beginning of one to set up the turn. That somewhere is in your legs and hips - a slight turn there, with none in the top, creates a small but important degress of twist in the body.

"If you read Alex Moore which you have read, what is he saying when he wrote that the step is forward without a twist of the body."

Don't change his words. He did not say "without" twist, he said tha that the swing was more important. And he is right. But that doesn't make the twist unimportant.

This is an old one. I think anonymous was getting muddled up with CBM and calling it a twisting of the body..

"This is an old one. I think anonymous was getting muddled up with CBM and calling it a twisting of the body.."

CBM would be twist free if the entire body (well, the trunk) all turned at the same time at the same rate.

That's not what real teachers will ultimately ask you to do. Instead, they will want the turn to manifest at different times and rates in different parts of the body core. Thus, twist.

But this is an advanced concept that's not going to be there in the first presentation to newer students.

It is the International style of Standard and not Latin that is being discussed. If you can tell me exactly on a Feather Step for instance where there is a twist in the body, I take it that a twist is when the upper body is turned and the pelvis isn't., or vice versa.
I believe Terence had something to say just recently about the Left shoulder leading has been amended to Left side leading.
It is easy to see how the mistake took place with some book readers.

I hope this post appears in the correct sequence.
Twist in foxtrot feather step....
I don't see how a good feather step can be performed without twist.
The feet must point along the line of movement , but we're dancing outside partner. There's only so much rotation of the pelvis that you can do before the feet must move out of this alignment. But the upper torso can rotate relative to the pelvis to make the upper line look more attractive. Hence twist, or 'torque'.(torque isn't strictly the same as twist - torque is a force, whereas twist is a position - but torque is a good word here because i feel i have to supply a force to keep my upper body in shape)

Phil. We might add this straight from the technique book. It should be noted that the amount of turn is now measured from the position of the feet .
For me twisting of the spine is. With feet parallel turn your shoulders to the right and your hips to the left. A very uncomfortable position to be in.
An instance of how the amount of turn is assessed can be taken from the first three steps of a Natural Turn for the lady in the Waltz.After stepping back diagonally to the wall on the first step, her second step is placed to the side with the Right Toe pointing down LOD. ( the body is still facing digonal to the centre ). The amount of turn is given as three eighths of a turn, although the body has turned less. On the inside of the turn the feet are always placed with the toe pointing to the required position and there is no swivel of the foot.
Another page under CBM. Care must be taken not to turn the shoulders independently or an ugly dipping motion will result.
Under Alignment . There are three terms used in conection with alignment. They are facing, Backing and pointing. Facing and Backing are self explanatory. Pointing is used on side steps when the foot is pointing in a direction different from which the body is facing.
Forward turn to the Right. Step forward on the RF at the same time swing the Left hip and shoulder forward. Hip and Shoulder
I didn't realise that untill just now the charts in Moore's book are each square is 2 foot by 2 foot and every effort has been made to keep the steps to scale.
Back to the twisting of the spine. There is nowhere that I can see where it tells a student to twist the spine.
If I were to twist my body. Ask your partner does she feel she is being asked to go to two different directions at the same time. I think she will say yes. Good luck

"For me twisting of the spine is. With feet parallel turn your shoulders to the right and your hips to the left. A very uncomfortable position to be in."

Sure, if you do it to that extreme. But this is indeed what happens TO A MUCH SMALLER DEGREE in fully skilled ballroom dancing.

"Another page under CBM. Care must be taken not to turn the shoulders independently or an ugly dipping motion will result."

Yes, but this is still not a blanket prohibition against body twist, instead it is a warning about using a counterproductive twist in a situation where something very different is called for.

I find the most notable examples of body twist occur in situations where you turn your hips before your upper body - which is basically the opposite of what your citation warns against.

"Back to the twisting of the spine. There is nowhere that I can see where it tells a student to twist the spine."

Nor is there any blanket prohibition against it. Nor, quite obviously, is the book description anywhere close to completely capturing what advanced dancers actually do.

With the noted exception of the body twist necessary to achieve a clean promenade position, twist in the body is a fairly advanced topic which shouldn't really be raised with beginners - because as the book points out, other things are far more important.

"If I were to twist my body. Ask your partner does she feel she is being asked to go to two different directions at the same time. I think she will say yes."

If I do it right, she will match me by moving different parts of her body in different BUT COMPATIBLE ways, as necessary to achieve the desired result. But if you do it wrong, you will be asking her to do two CONFLICTING things with her body.

However this is an advanced concept that's not going to come up in most lessons and especially not most written descriptions. It's a lot easier to get it wrong than to get it right, so most teacher comments on the subject of twist are going to come down to "don't do it" - the actual encouragement to do the proper kind of twist will come later, and is as likely to be communicated by feel or by allusion as to be stated literally "twist your body this way".

Anonymous. I meant to put this in before. If you put a DVD on of one of our Super Stars Dancing. Imagine they are wearing one of those Posture Frames. This will make you look at the action of the side and shoulders instead of being distracted by all the other things going on.You know how a magician moves one hand and we cant help following that hand with our eyes. The same happens when watching dancing. Keep your eyes on that imagined frame and tell me that you can see a twist in the spine.
Keep twisting long enough and you will finish with back trouble if you aren't already.
I would imagine that it is on a Feather Step where you think it is necessary to twist the spine. I don't think it would be on the turn in the Waltz because we all know that we complete the step before we turn. In the Tango some might believe there is a twisting of the spine because of the right side lead. But there isn't if the feet are off set as they are supposed to be before we step.
If you can think of the centre of your body is your spine. It is also the centre of your balance. It is not necessary to alter the shape of it . Why would I . It's my driving force which is driven to my front. That's my spine.

"Keep your eyes on that imagined frame and tell me that you can see a twist in the spine."

How can you see a twist, which is something that would have to happen BETWEEN two different body parts, when you concentrate your attention on one part of the body alone????

You wouldn't see twist unless you compared the rotational alignment of two different body parts separated by some significant distance up and down the spine.

And even then you probably wouldn't see it, because outside of extremely obvious situations like promenade it is fairly slight. However, if you danced with someone of sufficient skill that they incorporate this, you'd probably FEEL how they use each part of their body in a different BUT COMPATIBLE way, to create the desired whole much more effectively than the beginner's rigid body usage can.

Anonymous.On the forward part of any turning figure it is much more important to feel a forward swing than a concious TWIST OF THE BODY..
CBMP. Is the position attained when either foot is placed across the front or the back of the body WITHOUT THE BODY TURNING.
Can anything be more clearer than that.
You job is to now tell us exactly where or who told you to twist your body.I think the only time the word Twist is used is describing a Tango Twist Turn. Incidently in which the spine stays aligned over the centre of the body.
Finally I will quote Steven Hillier who said that below the hips and to the base of the pelvis imagine we have three blocks of wood each balanced and square to each other. We must try to keep those blocks of wood aligned one over the other at all times. Lecture given in Melbourne many years ago. It hasn't altered since.