Yes, waltz is higher than foxtrot.

However, all of waltz, foxtrot, and quickstep reach their own highest height at about the same point, as a result of the body arriving or passing directly over a nearly straight leg. This is simple and automatic geometry, which the Moore/ISTD books do not concern themselves with - instead, they speak of the rising action, which is indeed over after step one for foxtrot.

(Of course a nearly straight leg does not mean absolutely straight - the knee must still be soft and not be locked.).

So the height is the same in the four swing dances . The only difference is the way we get there. I think you will find except for the stretch in the body there is no appreciable difference in the height that the heel is off he floor.

"So the height is the same in the four swing dances ."

Abosolutely NOT!

Foxtrot is much lower than waltz!

"The only difference is the way we get there."

That is also different.

"I think you will find except for the stretch in the body there is no appreciable difference in the height that the heel is off he floor."

If you allow yourself to get ahead of the music in foxtrot, you may have to rise to a waltz like altitude to control yourself, but if you dance it PROPERLY as demonstrated by the masters, your maximum rise will be moderate.

Contrast in waltz, you will at times be over a fairly straight leg with a lot of foot rise. Wheras in foxtrot, your heel would only be moderately off the floor while your are directly over it. It is very high off the floor only at times when the body is not over it, in other words when the height of the heel does not contribute to the altitude of the body.

Characteristic waltz figures require dramatic rise which absorbs almost all of the motion energy in order to work. Characteristic foxtrot figures on the other hand would be ENTIRELY RUINED if danced risen to waltz height. Not to mention, the lady's footwork would be impossible if her parnter was rising to a waltz-like altitude!

I'm looking at Hilton and partners feet in Waltz and Foxtrot. You know who they are. What do I see.
It is a very beginnerish mistake to think that in passing steps there is any diference in the height of the heel from the floor. Discusion finished.

"I'm looking at Hilton and partners feet in Waltz and Foxtrot. You know who they are. What do I see.
It is a very beginnerish mistake to think that in passing steps there is any diference in the height of the heel from the floor. Discusion finished."

If you mean that a foxtrot figure imported into waltz is not that different than when it is danced in foxtrot, I would agree.

But if you compare *characteristic* foxtrot figures to *characteristic* waltz figures, the altitude of the rise is VERY DIFFERENT.

As I understand it, and perhaps I am wrong, but the footwork for both dances as a man is the same, heel toe, toe, toe heel. However, I was taught that in order to keep the characteristics of the dance, foxtrot has a lower rise and waltz higher. My understanding is that the rise in waltz is to help not only with the patterns but also to reflect true waltz music. The way that I was taught to keep foxtrot rise lower is by pitching the knee forward so that you have the same amount of foot rise but as you would in the waltz but not the same amount of overall rise.

To my understanding, this is done because in foxtrot your overall goal is to have equal step size for your slows and quicks. In order to show a difference between the two dances (besides just timing)you have to apply the proper styling and characteristics as well (which includes rise and sway).

I was also taught that the reason this works is because your lines are mostly created from the leg you are leaving behind, and are created mostly on your first and third steps, therefore the pitching of the knee shouldn't affect any leg lines that are being created.

Now, I would like to conclude this by saying I've only been dancing (instructing) for a year, so if someone is POSITIVE that this is wrong, I would love to know.. however if you are just making and educated guess as I am (from manuals, videos, etc.), then I would love to hear your position on it, but please don't claim it as fact. Thanks!

Xtal, you do have some of the right ideas.

Except that there is most definitely less actual foot rise of the standing foot in characeristic foxtrot figures than in characteristic waltz figures.

In foxtrot, you would usually only accomplish a lot of foot "rise" on a foot that was actually your moving foot rather than your standing foot - you only get that high articulation of the foot after you have left it behind. This is not the same thing as bending your knee of your standing leg forward so that you can have more foot rise in the standing foot (I've seen half trained students make that mistake, and a mistake it most certainly is!)

The one time in foxtrot where you would come closer to waltz rise and waltz dynamics is where you use the rise to almost completely reverse direction - for example, a curved feather or a curved three step, where you do use a lot of rise to absorb and re-direct the movement, much as in waltz. And notice that on these figures, the lady does have footrise on her second step, whereas should would not have any foot rise on that step in an ordinary linear feather or three.

Xtai. Go to the Learn the Dances section Choose Foxrot Feather Step and study.What do you think you see. If you have any tapes of an IDSF final , when they do the solo, study again having no pre-conceived ideas in your mind of how it is done. Believe your own eyes. You are right about the rear foot. It is the most seen for both the man and lady.Show a good leg line there which again if you know what to look for is right before your eyes.
One last thing. On a Feather Step the size of the steps cannot be the same. With CBMP on the third step it becomes a foot placement as does any Feather Finish.
About the height that the heel is from the floor in the Waltz and the Foxtrot. Again look in slow motion. What do you see from our better dancers. Is there a difference on the moving steps. That is steps where the feet pass.

"On a Feather Step the size of the steps cannot be the same. With CBMP on the third step it becomes a foot placement as does any Feather Finish."

Quickstep,

If you could ever bring yourself to let go of your own MISCONCEPTIONS and follow you OWN ADVICE and actually LOOK at video...

You would discover that in fact the third step is essentially the SAME SIZE as the second.

This is possible because the third step is created not so much by the swing of hte leg across the body (which can be only moderate) but by the way in which the top dancers keep their entire body moving. The step relative to the body is moderate, but the step across the floor is HUGE, because it is the some of a moderate leg swing plus a quite full and continous movement of the entire body.

Beginners like you of course lack the ability to sustain body movement in that manner.

Anonymous,

Thank you for your advice and knowledge, I will definitely take that into consideration. My training is definitely lacking in the sense that I don't get much outside training (i.e. coaches etc.), the stuff that I know, I only "know" because of studying tapes and manuals, the things my dance partner has taught me, and just common sense and what seems to work. My dance partner and I are the most advanced instructors at our studio and have only been teaching for a year to a year and a half. I do think we are doing well for ourselves though (considering all things. lol).

Quickstep,
Please understand that my already conceived notion was something that I had already taken the time to sit and watch videos and study manuals, etc. for. BUT, I am not opposed to doing it again in chance that I've missed something.

Anyway, thank you both. If you have any more info you would like to share, I would appreciate it!