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Re: Rumba Count
Posted by LuvLatin
3/19/2007  6:29:00 PM
For one who doesn' t do the American Style and trying to make sense out of it. To me it is how you start off.
If you use S Q Q . it means you are doing the Slow on the RF to the side and continue.
If you are using Q Q S. It probably means your first step is a Front Basic on the LF for a Q and continue. Whichever way you are taught the Slow will have Two beats and the Quicks One beat. I hope this is clear.In the International Style on a Basic the first step forward LF is on beat two. So we have step one on beat two. Thus we have the count of
2 3 (4 1). Not knowing the other styles there is a possibility you are dancing (3 4). 1 2. Which to us is out of time with the music.
Finely. If you were into a Sequence Rumbas, there are many of them, The Queen of Hearts is one. They all start LF forward on beat one.
Whichever way, we have Two legs Four Beats . Three Steps and One hip movement.
Re: Rumba Count
Posted by Anonymous
3/19/2007  7:18:00 PM
"For one who doesn' t do the American Style and trying to make sense out of it. To me it is how you start off.
If you use S Q Q . it means you are doing the Slow on the RF to the side and continue.
If you are using Q Q S. It probably means your first step is a Front Basic on the LF for a Q and continue. Whichever way you are taught the Slow will have Two beats and the Quicks One beat. I hope this is clear.In the International Style on a Basic the first step forward LF is on beat two. So we have step one on beat two. Thus we have the count of
2 3 (4 1). Not knowing the other styles there is a possibility you are dancing (3 4). 1 2. Which to us is out of time with the music."

While the slow in international rumba crosses the bar line, the slow in either style of american rumba is contained within a single bar. It is 1-2 in one style and 3-4 in the other, never the 4-1 used in international.

You might call that off time with the music from your perspective, but it's really not - because the MUSIC IS DIFFERENT, not just in its tempo. There's a few wishy washy songs that can be danced either way, but when you know both dancers some numbers will scream for international timing with it's cross bar slow, and others will scream out for the american approach with its contained, half-measure slow. Even if you alter the tempo, you really can't turn one song into the other - at a minimum, you'd have to re-record with a different philosophy in the rhythm section.
Re: Rumba Count
Posted by LuvLatin
3/19/2007  8:18:00 PM
Not in a competition, but we can do a Rumba to some tunes that are actually Foxtrots. It shouldn t be difficult even for a beginner to pick out the beats and link the 4 with the 1. Personally i would never count in slows and quicks. It is fine for the absolute basics. But after that it wont work.
Re: Rumba Count
Posted by Anonymous
3/19/2007  10:51:00 PM
"Not in a competition, but we can do a Rumba to some tunes that are actually Foxtrots. It shouldn t be difficult even for a beginner to pick out the beats and link the 4 with the 1. Personally i would never count in slows and quicks. It is fine for the absolute basics. But after that it wont work."

Sure, you can force anything to work, but characteristic american rumba music does not really suggest the 4-1 timing of international rumba. Instead, it suggests the half-measure aligned timing of american rumba.

Wheras foxtrot does having something aking to the 4-1 holdover...
Re: Rumba Count
Posted by SocialDancer
3/20/2007  3:17:00 AM
"Finally. If you were into a Sequence Rumbas, there are many of them, The Queen of Hearts is one. They all start LF forward on beat one."

Not officially they don't. The scripts and competitions are all danced using the normal international timing of 2,3,4-1.
When danced socially however they are almost universally danced 1,2,3-4. Part of the reason is the music used for sequence dancing. This usually has a very definite 'dance on 1' feel. The same applies to sequence cha cha too, danced 1,2,3&4, which incidentally is the timing used on the original "Wheels" played by Joe Loss 50 years ago.
Re: Rumba Count
Posted by Anonymous
3/20/2007  5:49:00 AM
The rumba count issue is one of the reasons that I switched to International Latin. Am. Rhythm has so many different syllabus patterns by different schools, plus different counts that each school chooses to invent. With Int. Rumba, I do a starter step with my right foot on 8, hold on 1 and step forward or break on 2 with my left foot. I have danced Int. Rumba to American tempo, but it is not the same and you can't do much hip work with faster music.

The so called American Smooth and Rhythm has been somewhat of a curse for serious dancers and having to navigate all the different variations of beats and watered down versions of International dance movements.
International has solid information, syllubus patterns, reference manuals, the best teachers, and consistant counts and music.
Re: Rumba Count
Posted by LuvLatin.
3/20/2007  6:00:00 PM
I absolutely agree with everything you said. As i put once before. Just about all the top dancers start in a static position as if they have done a Rumba Walk on the LF. They pick up the count and step forward on the RF on the beat of one and then a Front Basic as normal with the LF. Alen Fletcher on his tape says every step is either a forward or backward walk. Wally Laird once said to a lady pupil. If i see a gap between your thighs once more i will place my hand in that gap. More on the gap from Katarina on Slavik' s DVD. You know how some of us are told at the start to have our RF to the side and roll over on one. That' s out. Wally would have seen to that. It' s interesting that you are starting on the eighth beat which means you are counting at the beginning 5 6 7 8 which is correct and makes you in phrase with the music. You must have a well informed teacher.
In the Cha Cha Donnie Burns sets up with the RF behind the LF and starts with a Lock ( Latin Cross) on the RF 4 and 1. No rolling onto the RF there. Best of luck.
Re: Rumba Count
Posted by Anonymous
3/20/2007  7:57:00 PM
"The so called American Smooth and Rhythm has been somewhat of a curse for serious dancers and having to navigate all the different variations of beats and watered down versions of International dance movements.
International has solid information, syllubus patterns, reference manuals, the best teachers, and consistant counts and music."

Nobody said you had to pick more than one of the many choices.

And nobody said you had to water it down... though you will dance against that a lot in the american styles, and loose to it unless you can match the showmanship of those who do.
Re: Rumba Count
Posted by DennisBeach
3/18/2007  8:13:00 PM
Lady in Red is my favorite Rumba. It really captures the attitude of Rumba, that our teachers told us. The I am so lucky to be dancing with this wonderful lady attitude. Costa Magica ballroom group sang it in Italian and it was really romantic in Italian.
Re: Rumba Count
Posted by aanon
3/21/2007  1:24:00 PM
'Counting' quicks and slows makes no sense. What is 'quick' and what is 'slow'? MAYBE it is a relationship to two movements, but dance isn't based on that - it's based on a relationship to music and movement. What beat and what movement happens is real - 'quick quick slow' is relative to - whatever - and that's why most beginners see ance as a 'basic step' of quicks and slows, and most dancers past the beginner stage see technique related to quarterbeats of music as the way to 'define' movement. That's why beginners can always seem to 'count' the same QQSS or whatever to what they see - they are not aware of where the movement starts (on 1? On 2and / a?) or where the accents and such are.

You'll always lose an argument with a beginner about timing - they cannot see anything past what they know, and what they know is long and short 'steps'. Try to explain that, for instance, Int'l starts on 2, and they will blithely start 'counting' on one, missing the body action on 4/1, the accent on 2, etc.

'American Style' was created at the beginner level to be comprehendable to... a beginner. Int'l does not pander to this - the movement you start out with is the movement you can do championships with. However, the average social student simply sees a box shape and a slow and quick pattern, and believes they have 'learned' rhumba in the 4 to 6 weeks of their course. To them, what YOU dance is 'wrong'...

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