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+ View Older Messages

Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Anonymous
4/2/2007  7:08:00 PM
"Phil. Do you get comfortably to a position where you are momentory equally suspended between the heel of the front foot and the ball of the back foot."

I would hope he doesn't.

"If not why not."

Because the human foot is not symmetric. The ankle is located at the back of the foot, not the middle. This means that your body will naturally be closer to your front leg (which is effectively shorter to its heel) than to your back leg, which is effectively longer (to its toe).

"Does the knee come into action first."

Yes, but the body moves during this phase in order to remain over the knee. That is how the body gets ahead of the foot in the early part of each action - the body goes with the knee, but the foot initially does not.

Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Pimpernel
4/3/2007  5:13:00 PM
Isn' t my foot constantly the same measurement between the heel and the ball of the other foot or does it suddenly become larger and smaller. Either way i am sure those who wrote the books know better than you or I. Even if you had one leg longer than the other there will be a mid point.
Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Anonymous
4/3/2007  8:57:00 PM
"i am sure those who wrote the books know better than you or I."

If you take the time to read exactly what they wrote and EXACTLY WHAT SITUATON THEY WERE COMMENTING ON, I think you'll find there is a lot less disagreement between what is in the book and what I've been advocating than you presently believe. But based ont he "which goes first" thread, you don't seem willing to put enough care into reading the book to be eligible to comment on it.

"Even if you had one leg longer than the other there will be a mid point."

No. That is very faulty logic. There is absolutely no reason why the body cannot stay closer to one foot than the other throughout the entire action, excepting only the instant when the feet are in the same place (passing). And there is quite a lot of reason to believe that this is precisly what they do!!!
Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Pimpernel
4/4/2007  7:11:00 PM
You are so stupid it denies belief. How can anything go from one position to another without being at some point half way between the two. Go to your nearest door and open or shut it. Is that a simple enough explanation
For those who have just tuned in. My friend believes that what is written in plain English in the technique books is wrong. It says. At the extent of the stride the heel of the front foot and the ball of the back foot are or off the floor and the body is equally divided between the two. This is called mid -point within the trade. But because he has been given the idea, by some teacher who should be locked up, that the body travells in front of the foot he doesn't believe there is a mid- point. As i said in the beginning How stupid can anybody be. Any of us has only to walk across the room. What would mum say if we took off with our body in front of our feet
Whilst we are here there is this other problem my friend has. When he reads or has it read to him that when going Backwards the supporting heel does not lower to the floor untill the moving foot is level with it. This is pointed out to him including the page number and low and behold within no time at all without giving any proof he says the same things all over again.
So now tell me where you can find anything from any intelligent source that says anything contrary to the above. Either put up or shut up.
Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Anonymous
4/4/2007  8:11:00 PM
"You are so stupid it denies belief. How can anything go from one position to another without being at some point half way between the two."

You've just made a dreadful error in logic.

You can't go from one POSITION to another without being halfway in between.

But that isn't what we had been talking about - we had been talking about going form one FOOT to the other.

And therin lies the difference. If you were to mistakenly place both feet into fixed positions, and move the body between them, then yes there would be a point when the body was halfway in between.

But that is just not how foxtrot is danced. Instead, foxtrot moves the body and the foot largely at the same time. The moving foot isn't in a fixed position, instead it is a moving target.

Early in the action, the body is projecting from the standing foot and the feet are still closed. The body is an equal distance in front of both feet.

Soon the moving foot is also moving, but still not caught up to the body. The body is closest to the moving foot.

Then the moving foot is directly under the moving body, and obviously closest.

Next the moving foot is slightly ahead of the body, which has by now project a long way ahead of the standing foot.

Soon thereafter the moving foot stops moving, and the body starts getting closer to it again.

The result? At no point in this process was the body equidistant between the feet - BECAUSE THE MOVING FOOT WAS ALSO MOVING.

"My friend believes that what is written in plain English in the technique books is wrong. It says. At the extent of the stride the heel of the front foot and the ball of the back foot are or off the floor and the body is equally divided between the two."

Wrong - You rephrased the passage in a way that changes it's meaning. The actual reference is to the DIVISION OF WEIGHT rather than the BODY POSITION.

Go get out your book, and recheck and you will see that there is abosolutely no mention of being equidistant between the feet. Indeed, the position described is certainly assymetric, as the front leg with it's heel on the floor and thus ankle low is shorter than the back leg, with it's heel and thus ankle substantially off the floor.

"But because he has been given the idea, by some teacher who should be locked up, that the body travells in front of the foot he doesn't believe there is a mid- point."

Oh, so now you want to lock up Blackpool champions? Really dude, get a clue!

"When he reads or has it read to him that when going Backwards the supporting heel does not lower to the floor untill the moving foot is level with it. This is pointed out to him including the page number and low and behold within no time at all without giving any proof he says the same things all over again."

Please tell me again on what page is says that DURING A LOWERING ACTION the heel will not lower until the moving foot closes. Hint, there is no such page. The only completely detailed description of this action is given for a CASE WITH NEITHER RISE NOR FALL.

Your carelessness with these critical details is your undoing!

"So now tell me where you can find anything from any intelligent source that says anything contrary to the above. Either put up or shut up."

Get yourself some lessons with blackpool champs... they are really wonderful people to work with, and they do know a few things about dancing
Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Pimpernel.
4/5/2007  2:12:00 AM
Dont talk rot.Page 13
In the Walk at the full extent of the stride the weight is divided equally for a moment between the heel of the front foot and the ball of the back foot.
Same page Backward Walk.
Continue to move backward, draw the right foot back to the left foot and at the same time slowly lower the left heel to the floor making sure it does not touch the floor untill the right foot is level with it.
All of the above is word for word straight from the technique book.
The Forward Walk .Page 10
In the actuall Walk the weight is first on the stationary foot. At the full extent of the stride it is divided for a moment between the heel of the front foot and the ball of the rear foot. It is taken immediately on to the front foot as this foot becomes flat.
Anonymous. Take a special note of that last sentance and tell me how you can get your weight in front of the foot and do all of the above.
I know it is hard to accept that you have spent a few years learning incorrectly. I shudder to think how many poor innocent souls you are ruining because apart from your inability to listen and your inability to read what is written.You don't appear to have any common sense.
If you would tell exactly which of the above extracts from the technique book pages 10 and 13 are not exactly as written. I will stand corrected.
Don' t evade the issue with a word smoke screen.In plain English please. And for heavens sake man read what is written and dont read into it your own beliefs. I await with my cap in my hand for an apology.
Re: Flight the Body
Posted by sqq
4/5/2007  10:30:00 AM
Even if Anonymous does not believe there usually are acceleration and deceleration during every step.

When pushing with supporting foot the body accelerates and must accelerate to transfer weight from moving foot to pushing foot. When accelerating momentum increases.

When landing on a foot there is no pushing force but braking force which decelerates and must decelerate the mass of the body to transfer weight from moving foot to landing foot to get on the foot. When decelerating momentum decreases.

When the center of mass is in front of the pushing foot it is useful to accelerate any part of the body. When the center of mass is behind the landing foot it is useful to decelerate every part of the body.

“Early in the action, the body is projecting from the standing foot and the feet are still closed. The body is an equal distance in front of both feet.”

First the push accelerates the gravity point of the body. During acceleration inertia forces push the body backwards and support not to overbalance forward.

”Soon the moving foot is also moving, but still not caught up to the body. The body is closest to the moving foot.”
“Then the moving foot is directly under the moving body, and obviously closest.”
”Next the moving foot is slightly ahead of the body, which has by now project a long way ahead of the standing foot.”

It is useful to save the accelerating swing of the moving foot latest. Accelerating force of push decreases to the end of the push. When acceleration of the gravity point of the body ends it is useful to still have the mowing foot back to be able to swing the leg forward to use the last possible accelerating mass and inertia force to support the body backwards.

”Soon thereafter the moving foot stops moving, and the body starts getting closer to it again.”

When the moving foot stops and the push has ended there is no accelerating force if not lowering. The mass of the body will decelerate. When landing on the foot it is useful that every part of the body decelerates to produce inertia forces to push the mass of the body on the landing foot while momentum decreases. Again it is useful not to swing accelerating the moving foot forward but to save the swing and straightening of the knee to the end of the stride. If one immediately swings the mowing foot strongly accelerating forward towards the standing foot he would overbalance backwards.

At the times of Alex Moore they did not know inertia forces. Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_Moment_Point knows.

Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Anonymous
4/5/2007  10:39:00 AM
":Dont talk rot.Page 13
In the Walk at the full extent of the stride the weight is divided equally for a moment between the heel of the front foot and the ball of the back foot."

Yes - see it never says that the body is equidistant between the feet?

So stop trying to argue that this is proof that is should be.

In fact, the given description of front heel on the floor and back heel raised is proof that the body will be closer to the front foot!

"Take a special note of that last sentance and tell me how you can get your weight in front of the foot and do all of the above."

Its right in the passage, which to paraphrase from memory, says that at the commencement of the walk always feel that the body moves before the foot.

"If you would tell exactly which of the above extracts from the technique book pages 10 and 13 are not exactly as written. I will stand corrected."

Today you quoted correctly, but your quotes DO NOT SUPPORT YOUR ARGUMENTS. In fact, they support mine!!
Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Pimpernel
4/5/2007  6:35:00 PM
If the quotes support your argument then you must be doing your steps correctly. I, and yourself. and possibly millions of others believe that the body weight will be equally divided between the heel of the front foot and the ball of the back foot. And that on a backward step the supporting heel will not lower untill the moving foot draws level. Is that right. How on earth are you going to get out of this one.
To S Q Q. Very nicely written . Others would do well to print that one and keep it as a reference, especially Anonymous. As has been written before. It is to some hard to come to grips with the fact that they have been taught wrong. I was taught wrong at the bronze level in Latin in the Rumba. But i was not silly enough not to change when i found out i had been taught by somebody who should not have been teaching Latin at all. Nothing was said about the Latin Motion. Nothing about straight locked knees when the technique called for it. In fact most of what was taught was worse than usless.
Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Anonymous
4/5/2007  9:41:00 PM
"I, and yourself. and possibly millions of others believe that the body weight will be equally divided between the heel of the front foot and the ball of the back foot."

This is probably only true in the small sort of walk performed as an exercise. The more dynamic actions which becomes possible when the walk-like action is preceded and/or followed by a body swing tend, in my observation, to go to far for the weight to ever be split between feet.

"And that on a backward step the supporting heel will not lower untill the moving foot draws level."

This is true for some actions, but untrue for others. In many lowering actions for examply, it is appropriate for the foot to go flat before the other foot has closed to it. Not for the body weight to run away too soon, but just for the foot to go flat and the knee to start absorbing some of the lowering, before the feet have closed. In flatter actions, such as the textbook walk, the heel will lower closer to the time when the feet pass. Different situations require DIFFERENT DETAILS.

"To S Q Q. Very nicely written . Others would do well to print that one and keep it as a reference, especially Anonymous."

SQQ is right that the body can only be supported in the unbalanced positions by also driving to create a horizontal acceleration. However, there are two important points to keep in mind:

1) The body is not necessairly fully supported. Some of these actions involve a marked lowering of the body!

2) The pulsing of acceleration and deceleration that this explanation applies can not usually be seen to occur on each step. Instead, it occurs only over each cycle of steps. Note that we never take two identical steps in a row in the swing dances, generally we have a heel lead, an upswing onto a toe, and a downswing onto a toe that then flattens. There is no per-step pulsing, instead the pulsing of the heel lead step gets smoothly blended into what precedes and what follows it - it becomes a trend rather than a pulse. Even when we have two heel leads in a row in the three step, they aren't the same - one builds into the next. The cycle always spans several steps.

As has been written before. It is to some hard to come to grips with the fact that they have been taught wrong. I was taught wrong at the bronze level in Latin in the Rumba. But i was not silly enough not to change when i found out i had been taught by somebody who should not have been teaching Latin at all. Nothing was said about the Latin Motion. Nothing about straight locked knees when the technique called for it. In fact most of what was taught was worse than usless.
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