So you agree that there is no Sway to the mans right. which was the main point of the discussion on a Turning Lock. And is the slight incline of the shoulders called Sway. If it is what do you call the second step of a Natural.... Sway involves the whole of the side from tip to toe. A slight incline of the shoulder is not.
Whilst we are getting technical The 1st step of a Spin Turn is a Pivot .The Spin is on the 5th step. In the book .There is no sway on a Natural Spin Turn after the first three steps of the Natural.
So we have. Amount of Turn. On steps 1 to 3 make three eighths of a turn. Half a turn on step four. And 3/8ths of a turn between steps 5 ans 6.
Body Sway. To the right on 2 and 3. No Sway on the actuall Spin.
I looked at Ballroom Figures 2 once again. There is no sway on the 4 5 6 of the Spin Turn. Or an Outside Spin . Or in Natural Pivots. Or on a Turning Lock.
The only thing I can think is you have been watching an exhibition . As any Professional will tell you that in a Demonstration they do things they wouldn't dream of doing in a competition. That includes the content. Every thing I have with Marcus Hilton he keeps very erect with that magnificent top line. I doubt that he does any different wherever he dances.
I've just had a look at a tape with Marcus Hilton the 1995 World Dance Festival. His Spin Turn is exactly as it is on the Ballroom Competitions Figures 2. Not a suggestion of a Sway in the Spin Turn.

Hi Quickstep
Have you studied anyone other than Hilton? Any top italian dancers, for example.
Hilton would dance the 'classical' English style.
I'm afraid i won't be here for a week. So have fun everyone and try not to miss me too much

"So you agree that there is no Sway to the mans right. which was the main point of the discussion on a Turning Lock."

I DO NOT AGREE! There is nothing in my message to support such a conclusion.

I commented that Hilton used sway to the left in a turning lock to left. In a turning lock to right I would guess he often uses sway to the right at the beginning, just like most others.

"And is the slight incline of the shoulders called Sway."

I'm not talking about an incline of the shoulders (though that happens in this case), I am talking about a BODY sway.

"Sway involves the whole of the side from tip to toe."

Which is what Hilton did. Moreso in his spin turn actually, than in a number of his naturals, some of which he chose to make very upright rather than swingy, as that suited their application in this case.

"Whilst we are getting technical The 1st step of a Spin Turn is a Pivot."

Not usually. I know what you are reading, but the fact is it's not quite a full pivot even in the book, and it's very rarely danced as any sort of pivot at all. It only tends to be done as a pivot by new beginners, or by advanced dancers when very underturned or as part of a SERIES of pivots.

"The Spin is on the 5th step. In the book .There is no sway on a Natural Spin Turn after the first three steps of the Natural."

Nonethless, the majority of serious competitors make frequent use of sway there. This is the differnce between what you learn if you have only books and watered down teaching videos as a guide, vs. if you are out there in the real world as an active dancer, watching and studying with the best teachers. Which you plainly aren't.

"I looked at Ballroom Figures 2 once again."

I have a strong suspicion that teaching tapes are often watered down to make them "safe" for all audiences. Karen Hilton you might recall took a lot of criticism for a rather unorthadox explanation of heel turns in a lecture. Would not suprise me at all if they made videos hewing to the orthadox line, without the full some-experience-required details of what they themselves dance or teach their non-beginner students.

"There is no sway on the 4 5 6 of the Spin Turn. Or an Outside Spin . Or in Natural Pivots. Or on a Turning Lock."

Well, there isn't any if you insist on dancing like a beginner for the entirity of your life, a decision you've clearly made for yourself. The rest of us are interested in learning about these things called nuances and application specific details.

"Every thing I have with Marcus Hilton he keeps very erect with that magnificent top line. I doubt that he does any different wherever he dances."

Actually, I saw marked application-appropriate contrast within a single waltz! Some of what are normally swing figures like the 123 of natural turn were at times quite vertical with minimal sway, because they were preceding some very stand-up-vertical type pivots and thus matched that character of action. On the other hand, he did things that might to a beginner be purely vertical (like the spin turn) with noticeable swing and thus sway, because that's a far more efffective way to dance them when your goal is to flow down the floor, rather than to spin from foot to foot. Contrasting ideas within one single dance... my, what will they think of next?

Lets find out what is shaping and what is swaying. Remembering the man keeps that unbroken line so the lady can shape off it. If you are doing Australian New Vogue or American Smooth you would be doing many Shapes and Sways as a man that shouldn't be in Modern Ballroom. I've heard it said that if you wrere driving a car behind a New Voguer you will always know which way they are going to turn because they let their head lean in the direction they are going first. I know nothing about Smooth but any dance that has solo turns this is not unusual. Do it enough times and it could creep into your modern. And it does. To go back to the top. what is the difference between Shaping to the left and Swaying to the left. At what point would Shaping become Sway.

Quickstep:

"Lets find out what is shaping and what is swaying."

The spin turn as usually danced by non-beginner incorportates functional sway, which is to say sway that occurs as a result of BODY SWING.

"shape" sway occurs when the position is not coupled to the dynamics of movement, occuring instead for purely expressive purposes - ie, as part of a picture line.

The reason most serious dancers use sway in their spin turn is because they are using SWING to allow the figure to flow. They aren't doing it because they think it makes a pretty shape, instead it is occuring as a result of the way that they produce their movement.

Anna:

"This is how we are taught the Turning Lock finishing in Promemade.
At the end of the Spin Turn the man finishes facing against the LOD and holding that position extends his right leg behind without turning pointing the toe diagnal to the centre."

This is wrong - in conflict with both the book and with the practice of leading teachers.

As you finish the spin turn part, you should be in an oversway like position before the man's right foot moves back. When it does move back, it should go directly down the LOD, not pointing to DC as you implied. It's not until the second step that the the gradual rotation of the body will be reflected in a changed foot alignment. Note that the book EXPLICILTY GIVES RIGHT SWAY for the first two steps of the lock!

"I think you will find that done this way the turning is over the Lock."

It should be over the lock - but you had started it a step early and left out the sway.

Incidentally: those with an irrational fear of sway should also look up the turning lock to L in their books: Sway to the LEFT on the first two steps!

Anonymous. I think it would be better if you put any quoting as Jack said. The way you have written in several cases I have took the quote as being your thoughts. It needs to be definately put that this is what Jack said to save any confussion.
Also I would ask this question. If a man on a Turning Lock sways to the right. Won't that put the weight onto the right foot which if you watch Marcus does move. 1. and (2Move) 3. If I stand on it how can i move it. I think you may have it wrong there. I think our Italian friends if they do Sway will do it after the foot is in place and the Lock is completed.
The reason for the toe to point diagnal to the centre is so it has no further turn. it is in a perfect position for the Promenade.
Watch the feet to see if the Sway is after the right foot is in place, and is used to go into Promenade

Sway on 5-6 Spin Turn. I can see now why that forbidden sway has crept in. They are coming off a flat RF which will incline the body to the right. When stepping to the side ever since the first book was written by Victor Silvester in 1928 a step to the side should be from a toe to a toe not a flat foot to a toe. Because as the moving foot passes the standing foot the heel leaves the floor.That is basic technique. It also puts paid to the swing which does nothing for the step. Where did that come from anyway. This is Waltz.... Use this method in the Spin Turn Quickstep. You will get a more dynamic movement. In the Quickstep it is not as drawn out, or rather spread out, as it has been allowed in recent years.. I wish people would stop trying to rewrite the technique books. What next a cartwheel.

"Sway on 5-6 Spin Turn. I can see now why that forbidden sway has crept in."

Take a lesson with real teacher, and you'll realize that so many things you consider "forbidden" are in fact near-unverisal practice amongst leading dancers. It all points back to your desperate need to get your nose out of that book and get yourself some real-world dance experience.

"They are coming off a flat RF which will incline the body to the right."

Actually the sway begins as they are arriving on the right foot, then grows as they move through it. And the foot is not flat - it articulates as the body passes over it. You do not "come off a flat foot" you come off of a ball of foot.

"When stepping to the side"

It's not a step to the side, it's an essentially forwards step 5 followed by a backwards and slightly side step 6. You keep trying to apply the description of a basic spin turn to the far more dynamic action danced by real dancer.

"Because as the moving foot passes the standing foot the heel leaves the floor.That is basic technique."

WRONG. It's pretty hard to do the "spin" on step 5 if your heel is still on the floor! The heel will OBVIOUSLY be up before the other foot passes the standing foot. (Think for a minute about the underturned case, in which the feet never pass at all... the standing heel still comes up to permit the spin!)

"It also puts paid to the swing which does nothing for the step."

You meant to say "which I do not yet understand how it contributes to the step". The issue is not the swing, the issue is your insistence on viewing everything through a beginner's eyes. The use of swing in the spin turn, rather than a pivoting action, is a key component to what lets the dance flow easily down the floor - you swing past your partner rather than go around each other on steps 5 and 6. The result is sway on the later steps. Get some real lessons, and you might learn about it.

You might start by reviewing Jonathan's comment from near the top of the thread:

"And here's another one: The Overturned Spin Turn to Turning Lock to R. It's not just a spin with straight rightward sway, however. Like the Lunge Roll, the sway starts kicking in mid-movement. Think of it as a smooth Lunge Roll with rise... The body is straight as you approach the RF, then sway begins once the weight begins transferring, and continues to increase as you move away from it and towards the next step. The rightward sway is then held through the beginning of the Turning Lock, straightening out between steps 2 & 3."

Not as I remember it. The question originally was something to the effect of, "Can you sway on spin or pivoting actions?", to which the answer is an unequivocal, "Yes, you CAN". You don't have to, but you certainly can, and seasoned professionals do it all the time.

The answer to these examples is exactly the same: The basic version has no sway, but there are brilliant examples of versions that do. In fact, you can take almost any basic version of any figure from bronze and dress it up in various ways: Change the sway, rise & fall, overrotate, underrotate, etc. Most competitive above-Gold standard figures are nothing more than elaborate developments of syllabus figures (some more elaborate than others).

A good example of a Lock Step with sway: Change the rhythm to SQ&Q. Sway right on the slow with a slight checking action. Then sway left on the Q&Q, with the lady opening her head.

An Outside Spin with leftward sway and lady's head open is a beautiful example I already gave. You'll often see this version following a Curved Feather or Hairpin (the latter which you will not find in the "gray book", so no doubt you will deny its existence), and is accented with a slight flick or spiral action of the man's right foot as the weight releases from it on 1.

According to this line of logic, all of the following figures are either "chaotic" or don't exist: the Throwaway Oversway, Right Lunge, Same-Foot Lunge, consecutive Pivots, Rudolf Ronde, Tumble Turn, Scatter Chasses, Spanish Drag... (I'd go on, but I only have 12 gigabytes of space remaining on this server).

The dance world's "chaos level" does not depend on some arbitrary publication. It obviously rules your world, but the rest of the dance world does not wait for it to be released in paperback. It's preposterous to think that dancing cannot develop without first being written down, published and copyrighted. Dance technique develops in the studios and competitions around the world, not by Simon & Schuster.

You are right about one thing, though... The ISTD is years overdue for an update on their "little gray book". Of course, if they were to update it to reflect every possible correct interpretation of every possible figure, the resulting series of books would rival Encyclopedia Britanica in pure physical weight.

Regards,
Jonathan

Aren't most of these sways you speak of for the lady, are actually shaping. She must do something to be able to turn the head from one way to the other. So she shapes. Surely the man keeps a frame that she can work off to inhance the shapes.
The Sway on a Natural. That is a Sway which both the man and the lady does at the same time.
I asked a Professional what in a Spin Turn step 4-5 would tempt a person to sway to the right. The answer was . They either have the wrong contact with their partner. Or just dont know how the Spin Turn is supposed to be done. Off balance they step out instead of a Pivot. This makes it a kind of imitation Spin Turn. I have a point here. If I am the type of person who will bend rules then I will do it elswere and everywhere. Then where will we be
To go back to the first part. Is the sway actually just a shaping we see from the lady.
Designed for one reason only and that is to attract attention on the competition floor and does next to nothing to assist balancing the movement.