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Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by Serendipidy
1/23/2008  3:57:00 PM
I will put this on once again. At a lecture by Steven Hillier he said When I rise my body stays down. And when I lower my body stays up. It is all done through the feet ankles and knees.
An excellent excercise to duplicate this to stand by yourself against a door on your toes with the back touching the surface of the door, Lower through the feet ( keeping the heel of one foot from making contact with the floor ) As the heel touches the floor the knees will bend so that the angle between the feet and the knee is 45 degrees and the same between the knee to the hip. Now of course rise with the feet then the knees in that order. A question to ask oneself is what is the angle of the foot from toe to heel in relation to the legs when fully risen. And how many times will the knees bend in three beats of music in the Waltz.
The lady or whoever is going backwards in the Foxtrot. I don't know what you think but I think with the Sway that is required is all that is needed in the way of body rise to complement the man's steps and technique.
I would just like to add this. You never know how far you can go in ballroom dancing. The winners yesterday of the Professional Rising Stars Latin at the UK Championships. They were also winners at the German Championship. Five years ago they were doing Rumba Walks around and around this hall every Sunday with the rest of us untill they moved to the UK. I used to get directly behind Julian and Melanie hoping their talent might rub off on me. Keep trying you just never know
Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by anymouse
1/23/2008  5:03:00 PM
"I will put this on once again. At a lecture by Steven Hillier he said When I rise my body stays down. And when I lower my body stays up. It is all done through the feet ankles and knees."

On the contrary, the point of that lecture is that it is *not* all done through the feet and legs. There's a determined effort to lengthen the body, especially when lowering in the feet and legs - the actual change may be small, but the intent is important. It's not enough to go to the lecture, you actually have to schedule lessons with these teachers if you want to have a hope of really understanding them.

"As the heel touches the floor the knees will bend so that the angle between the feet and the knee is 45 degrees"

45 degrees might be the right answer for some situations, but it is the WRONG answer for others. Are you ever going to realize that dancing is all about context, or are you just going to go on repeating lecture trivia forever?

"A question to ask oneself is what is the angle of the foot from toe to heel in relation to the legs when fully risen."

For what application? For what dancer? For man or for lady? In what shoes? Context sir, context!
Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by Serendipidy
1/23/2008  5:58:00 PM
We are discussing I think a Waltz and to duplicate the action we will be doing if we are doing the rise and the fall in the Modern Waltz against a door. I am in bare feet. You can be in high heels. I believe the angle would be the same in both cases but obviously not at the start.. Also over the three beats of music there will be from straight to bent knees twice. Thats why its a good idea to get against that door and go for it. Thats a lot of flexing of the knees, about 42 times if we are on the floor for 1.5 minutes
Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by anymouse
1/23/2008  8:08:00 PM
"We are discussing I think a Waltz and to duplicate the action we will be doing if we are doing the rise and the fall in the Modern Waltz against a door. I am in bare feet. You can be in high heels. I believe the angle would be the same in both cases but obviously not at the start."

Then you obviuosly haven't really thought about it. Who is dancing? How strong are they? How stiff is the toe box of the shoe? Are they demonstrating, competing, social dancing, practicing? What tempo is the music? How big is the room? Is the floor crowded? What do they wish to communicate?

"Also over the three beats of music there will be from straight to bent knees twice."

Or once, or three times, or none at all. It all depends on the proportions of movement appropriate for the dancing that is to be done. As an obvious example, many dancers, from beginner through world finalist, will (for differing reasons) at times quite correctly not achieve fully straight legs in the three-to-one transition. In other situations they may achieve them not only there, but between one and two, flex somewhat, and then straighten again at the peak of the rise. Many possibilities that are correct, even for the same figure, all depending on the situation.

The key skill is not to memorize answers (since those will be wrong as often as they are right) but to understand why the answer for a specific case is what it is, and why the answer for a slightly different case - even of the same figure - would have to be different.
Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by Serendipidy
1/24/2008  5:50:00 AM
None of the technique books are directed to Social Dancers. So I would say you can remove the crowded floor syndrome Or a Waltz that is not played at the correct tempo. Or how strong the dancer is. The dancer has to fit the bill it is not the other way around. Who can think of a better excercise for strengthening the feet and ankles than to do the suggested against a door. And does it or does it not come near to the action we use in the Modern Waltz
Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by phil.samways
1/24/2008  6:18:00 AM
"""At a lecture by Steven Hillier he said When I rise my body stays down. And when I lower my body stays up. """
I've heard this many times. Probably Stephen Hillier was the original source. He is an excellent teacher.
It would be great to ask Stephen Hillier to expand on the quote.
Next time you sit in a chair (which obviously uses some lowering action with the legs) check your posture. Everyone i watch slumps a little as they sit down. This doesn't look good. One excellent way to prevent it is to 'think' up as you sit down. It's a thought picture. And an excellent one. Not to be taken absolutely literally.
Similarly, when you rise, don't strain every sinew in your body to get your head onto the ceiling. This looks unpleasant too.
If only i could remember this when i'm competing.....
Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by anymouse
1/24/2008  7:10:00 AM
"None of the technique books are directed to Social Dancers."

Actually they are, in that they are specifically for the training of teachers who would in practice primarily work with social dance students, hopefully ones who are serious about learning. That was true when they were written, and it's still true today.

"So I would say you can remove the crowded floor syndrome"

Okay, so forget the infamously crowded first round at Blackpool and imagine we've somehow magically gotten a by to the later ones.

"Or a Waltz that is not played at the correct tempo."

The correct tempo varies with the purpose of the dance. 26 can be correct. 34 can be correct. The range for competition is narrower, but competition is not the only reason for dancing a waltz, even for competitors (shows for example are often a bit slower)

"Or how strong the dancer is."

Now you are showing the complete lack of thought you have put into the question. What ultimately determined the foot rise that can be used while maintaining security and balance? The strength of the dancer's feet. Even amongst "good" dancers this varies. And it also depends on what shoes you are wearing - a shoe with a stiffer toe box (perhaps because it is new and not broken in) will let you go higher.

That's the amount that can be used. The amount that should be used is an application-determined question, that depends on all those factors you insist on ignoring.

Or consider your outrageous suggestion that while men's shoes and ladies shoes might start you at a different ankle angle, you should end up at the same one. If you start at different angles, but end at the same, then that means that the ladies must use less foot rise than their partners, even at low overall amounts of foot rise. How much rise should be used probably varies for the forward or backward partner, but to state a rule which forces the lady to always use something 3 cm less foot rise change than the man is pure ignorance of the obvious fact that the appropriate amount to use will depend on many factors in the dancing.
Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by Serendipidy
1/24/2008  5:45:00 PM
The lady in a 3 inch heel is already higher than a man in a 1 inch heel before the heels leaves the floor. There is a maximum height that can be reached and the lady is already part of the way there. So what are we saying.
Its worth mentioning at this time on how to apply NFR ( no foot rise ) on step one for the lady in a Modern Waltz. This is how it was explained to me. The lady takes the first step behind on the LF in CBM and lowers the heel. The weight is kept over the LF and the RF is placed to the side. The position to aim for is to stay on the supporting leg longer with the navel pointing to diagnal to the centre. At this point the navel should not be pointing down the LOD. That is untill the man's weight is passing. In other words the lady follows the man up after and not before. Why didn't Alex explain this in his book instead of just a few words on page 21. I suppose he didn't want to write the equivalent in size to Gone with the Wind. That must have been the reason.
Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by anymouse
1/24/2008  7:32:00 PM
"The lady in a 3 inch heel is already higher than a man in a 1 inch heel before the heels leaves the floor. There is a maximum height that can be reached and the lady is already part of the way there. So what are we saying."

Sure, there is a maximum height, based on the dancer's foot strength and the stiffness of their shoe.

But if the lady starts already higher than the man, and they both stop at the same height of the foot (neglecting the shoe) then her rise and fall is unlikely to be compatible with his. See the problem? In some cases it may be okay for her to use less change in foot rise, but in others she will probably have to use more than him.

The reality is that the height of the foot rise will be, within the range of what your body is capable of, determined by the needs of the situation in which you are dancing - including the requirement that it be something that your partner can create the corresponding match to.

Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by Serendipidy
1/26/2008  3:36:00 PM
Anonymous. Tell me where this is wrong if it is.
I am standing on a block of wood 3 inches high. My toes are touching the floor. You are on a block 1 inch high toes on the floor. You will rise a grand total of 6 inches. I to equall that will rise a grand total of how many inches ??

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