Anonymous.On the forward part of any turning figure it is much more important to feel a forward swing than a concious TWIST OF THE BODY..
CBMP. Is the position attained when either foot is placed across the front or the back of the body WITHOUT THE BODY TURNING.
Can anything be more clearer than that.
You job is to now tell us exactly where or who told you to twist your body.I think the only time the word Twist is used is describing a Tango Twist Turn. Incidently in which the spine stays aligned over the centre of the body.
Finally I will quote Steven Hillier who said that below the hips and to the base of the pelvis imagine we have three blocks of wood each balanced and square to each other. We must try to keep those blocks of wood aligned one over the other at all times. Lecture given in Melbourne many years ago. It hasn't altered since.

Hi Serendipity
When you wrote:
"On the forward part of any turning figure it is much more important to feel a forward swing than a concious TWIST OF THE BODY..
CBMP. Is the position attained when either foot is placed across the front or the back of the body WITHOUT THE BODY TURNING. ""
I agree that the concept of swing is important. But it leads to an element of twist. The original discussion about twist is whether there is any.
On CBMP - i would say there would often be a twist here - i.e. upper shoulder line not exactly the same as the pelvis alignment. Thee alignment doesn't CHANGE while the CBMP step is taken (hence no "turning")
I believe a 'twist' is essential in the feather step and also step 4 (man's left foot back, taken OP)in a weave from promenade in foxtrot (to give another example).
I will repeat what i said earlier. If the feet must stay aligned (to say the 12 o'clock position) you can only turn your pelvis so much (obviously varies, but in my case i can do about 1.30 - more if i'm motionless but not 'in action') yet my frame alignment might be 2.00 or even 2.30. My partner can follow this (she's good!)
NOW, if i'm wrong on this, somebody PLEASE tell me.
I will get out my Gozzoli DVD again. I'm sure he does the "3 fallaways with a turn to the right" with lots of 'twist' He'd call it 'shaping' probably (what's that in Italian?)

Hi again
Just a little follow-up on my previous post.
Have a look at this:
youtube.com/watch?v=sVYskhuGT0g&feature=related

(you'll need to put the w...w...w in front)
Couple no 29 doing a back weave down the floor. Lovely shaping, which does involve a 'twist'

Phil. I had no luck finding the one you mentioned. If you Google Marcus Hilton on youtube and find Basic Foxtrot. They do the routine three times if you stay with it. In the routine they do three different Weaves. One on bar 11 and 27 plus 29. You will notice that the routine is a eight bar phrased routine finishing on the fourth phrasing which = 32.
If you look at his shoulders you will see they are aligned over the hips at all times. Keep an eye on his right side. At the very end on the Throwaway it might be misinterpreted as a twist in the spine but I am confidant that what you see is Sway and not a twist.
If you have developed a twist and you analise it your shoulders or your hips have turned in an opposite direction to each other. Even a simple thing like a Lockstep, if the whole of the side doesn't go with the left foot you would have a twist in your spine. If your hip turned and your shoulder didn't, your hip would be pointing down the LOD and your shoulder would be pointing diag to centre. Your RF should be stepping Diag to wall O/S partner in accordance with the correct technique for a Lock Step in the Quickstep. And to put the lid on it. I asked a person who is currently in the top thirty in the world
Do we twist the spine . Here answer was definitely no. You drive the spine in the direction you are travelling.
Why would anybody want to do it any other way.
Trying to make sense out of this. I think the problem lies in that in the Foxtrot and in particular the Quickstep we are travelling sideways for so much of the dance . While'st you are with Marcus you might take a look at his Waltz also.
I am endevouring to copy the Hilton Basic Foxtrot ( which is far from basic). Sometimes wearing a Posture Frame. I'm OK at the moment up to the 24th bar. Which gets practiced over and over going through every little detail.
Back to the spine. With the dancer can you see that that spine stays between the shoulder and the hips. Sway yes twisting no.If you can find any Technique book or DVD or from a lecture where a twisting of the spine is mentioned or recomended then tell me who or where.
You might also look at the Foxtrot Feather Step on this site and look for any of the above suggested. You might be able to tell me exactly where you think a twist takes place. Look also at the Reverse Turn and the Three Step. Does yours look like that. It's supposed to.

"If you look at his shoulders you will see they are aligned over the hips at all times."

As I said before, you may not be able to see it or understand what you are seeing, but if you were to try dancing with a dancer of this level - which you clearly never have - you would feel all sorts of things going on in their body that break your beginner-level assumptions of how dancing is supposed to work.

"If you have developed a twist and you analise it your shoulders or your hips have turned in an opposite direction to each other."

Or turned DIFFERENT AMOUNTS in the SAME direction. Even temporarily different, caused by one part turning before another, still constitutes a twist.

"I asked a person who is currently in the top thirty in the world
Do we twist the spine . Here answer was definitely no."

You cannot take such answers too literally. You have to spend time studying with a person, feel what it's like to dance with them, and over the course of time you will start to develop a bit of udnerstanding of what they actually do - WHICH OFTEN CONFLICTS WITH WHAT THEY SAY THEY ARE DOING. Not necessarily because they are unknowledgeable, but often because they simply haven't thought about all meanings of the question. For example, your teacher's answer is literally false because it is inconsistent with the obvious reality of body twist in promenade position.

Also, 30th in the world is not a very good career stage for your authority teacher to be at - they are too caught up in competing to have true mastery as teachers yet. Try taking some in person lessons and getting a feel for what it's like to dance with the people who judge Blackpool. What you will learn from this can never be expressed in words.

"Why would anybody want to do it any other way."

Because it is ultimately necessary to use the various parts of the body in harmony rather than in strict unison - you cannot treat your torso as a rigid plank and expect to dance with true ease. But yes, we do start beginners off that way, and restrict them to that until they are ready for more.

Your comments strongly hint that your teachers do not feel that you personally are ready to add more advanced elements of technique.

Anonymous. Go to the Foxtrot on this site. You know how to slow it down. Tell me on the Feather Step and the Reverse Turn also the Three Step where there is a twist in the spine.
I am also waiting for an answer as to where it is written that the spine twists. Silence would mean there is none. There is nowhere where it is even remotely suggested that the spine has a twist in it..
There is an expression being used now by the lady which is you are attacking me. Which means you are entering into the ladies space . I can see that you wouldn't even get through the Feather and Reverse with your understanding ,let alone 24 bars of a routine.
But don't lets get side tracked. Who or where are you told to twist your spine. Simply answer, or keep quiet which, is what I anticipate you will do.

"I am also waiting for an answer as to where it is written that the spine twists."

You really haven't been reading my posts.

I already explained to you that this is an advanced concept that will not be found in written manuals, which are quite obviously far from a complete description of what real dancers do.

It's not even a subject that will necessarily come up by name in lessons, because it's not a productive way of viewing the action. It's not that you think of twisting, it's that when you do it right, a degree of twist will result in some situations.

If you were taking real in person lessons with top teachers, feeling the dancing in their body directly with yours, instead of being content with written sources, DVD's and lectures, you'd eventual discover that there is a wealth of body action in real dancing of which you are currently unaware.

Anyway, you want an example of spine twist? Look at any of Jonathan and Melissa's videos where they are in promenade. Because they subscribe to the contemporary view that it's desireable to point the feet in the direction of travel (vs. the traditional 45 degrees of the book), they will have nearly 90 degrees of twist between their shoulders and feet. A non-ignorable fraction of that will exist as twist between their shoudlers and hips - ie, twist of the spine.

Actually, it does come up on our lessons.

There's the more constant variety that exists in the upper back to accommodate the offset position -- This is the twist one would not observe by looking at a video (However, one might observe its absence if one or both of the dancers' left sides appears dropped and topline crooked).

The second type of torque is less localized, being distributed throughout the various "twistable" parts of the body, and allows the freedom of movement that you see in advanced dancers. It's certainly observable (although perhaps not by someone who doesn't know what he's looking at) in promenade, outside partner positions, and to a more subtle degree even in basic closed position throughout various parts of a turn.

The latter type is perhaps not described as "torque" very often, but as you said, that's only because there are better ways of teaching the concept, not because it isn't accurate to describe it thus. The former, on the other hand, is quite frequently described as "twist", "torque" or "torsion", because there's really no better way to describe it. I use these terms all the time in my teaching, as they are used by my teachers on my lessons.

Oh, and since these things seem to impress Serendipity, I should point out that almost all of my teachers are former champions and finalists, including one who I believe placed second in the world in standard, another a person who Serendipity himself raves about, a former U.S. smooth champion. They each have their own individual ways of teaching and describing these concepts, but they're all more or less in agreement about the execution. Not one of them would dream of dancing without allowing any freedom in the body to torque.

Regards,
Jonathan

Jonathan. Do you keep the spine driving in the direction you are travelling. On your demonstration of your Feather joined to the Reverse and Three Step I cannot see any twisting of the spine. I cannot see the spine of Marcus Hilton anywhere other than straight over the imaginary three blocks of wood which are at the pelvis level. To me a twisting of the spine is to fold a piece of paper into a strip and hold the bottom still and twist the top, or the other way around.. For instance in a Back Lock to forget that the right shoulder is taken back with the right foot.To do this wrong will be to turn the hips and not the top. That is a spine that is twisted. Having said all of that it doesn't mean we dance like a brick wall.
Quoting Harry Smith Hampshire. Outside partner movements are the most misunderstood movements even in International Championships.
Man Feather Step is a typical example. The first step, RF forward is taken in line with partner with the opposte side of body moving smoothly into the lead in syncronisation with the movement of the stepping foot i.e. the body is now angled across the line of the stepping foot. The second step LF forward is taken with an increased left side lead in preperation to step outside partner on the next step.
Isn't that what you are doing in your demonstration of the Feather. Reverse and Three Step.
I have a theory that people who start dancing rather late in life do dance like a brick wall. Then in a lesson the teacher tries to get them to use their sides. This gets misinterpreted as using the shoulders only. This is where the trouble starts and twisting results Now Latin is a different kettle of fish and possibly some moves in American Smooth as we have in Australian New Vogue which is based on Modern, but we do at times get some peculilar shaping. It is a fact that some of our top Standard coaches would say if you do that style as a competitor, don't bother to coming to me. Cheers

"On your demonstration of your Feather joined to the Reverse and Three Step I cannot see any twisting of the spine."

That doesn't mean it isn't there.

There's so much more going on in the body of a skilled dancer that you have not yet been taught about and do not yet have the perception to visually observe.

You can claim it isn't there until the day you die, but all you will do is proclaim to everyone that your knowledge is limited to the outline summaries found in books and lectures, without the subtler details that come from really training (day-to-day, body-to-body) with teachers who could develop your dancing to the next level.