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Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by terence2
8/19/2008  3:10:00 AM
If that really were the case.. there would be very, very, few world class coaches available to judge Championship events, such as the British and International.

It is not to say that it would not be possible, but highly unlikely .

Also, consider this... the adjudicators are booked many months in advance... how are they supposed to know who will and who will not be competing ?.
The possible exception to that rule.. a relative .
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by jofjonesboro
8/19/2008  5:37:00 AM
First of all, I don't consider pro/am to be serious - seriously expensive, yes, but not serious with regard to the development of dancing skills.

Second, it's one thing to take some coaching from a high-level professional who may or may not judge you someday and quite another to hire that coach BECAUSE that coach WILL be judging you.

Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by terence2
8/19/2008  8:04:00 AM
That depends on the skill and experience of the pro, and the dedication and " talent " of the student.

Its fair to say, that there are those in the pro/Am circuit are there for many different reasons.. but.. there are some very serious talented Amats.who cannot find a partner, but rather than bemoan the problem.. compete

I had the pleasure of coaching an amat couple a few yrs back, and the lady was an ex. amat. partner of Joe Jenkins. She was a past 3 times US Pro/Am. champ., and was a remarkable dancer.. the reason she stayed as an amat. was her profession ( Dr,in 2 sciences medical and research )

I have of course , known many others .
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by jofjonesboro
8/19/2008  8:29:00 AM
Terence, you state that there are good dancers who compete in pro/am because they cannot find partners.

While you may be correct in some cases, I believe that it is equally true to say that many of them do not want an amateur partner. I am making an observation and not a supposition.

A couple of years ago, I listed myself on a couple of partner-matching boards. Over the intervening months, I received a surprising number of responses (surprising given my age).

Unfortunately, every response - without exception - involved a lady in the same situation: she was competing in pro/am and wanted to practice more but couldn't afford to pay additional lesson fees just to do so with her pro.

I did give one of these women a try for a few months. As it turned out, she kept trying to shift more and more of the cost of our lessons and practices over to me (I described this situation in another post). When she let it slip that she was spending more on her pro, I decided to stop being a chump and dropped her.

I went back to the partner-matching sites and changed my notes to read "no pro/am competitiors." The responses stopped.

Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by Clary
8/19/2008  8:44:00 AM
I'm a bit confused. It sounds as though you dropped the pro/am lady because of financial reasons rather than because of a lack of dancing skills. Perhaps I misunderstood your objections to pro/am ladies?
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by jofjonesboro
8/19/2008  9:15:00 AM
I dropped her because, despite what she originally told me, she had no intention of ever becoming my competitive partner and was using me only to support her pro/am activity.

She was an OK dancer but not as good as she believed herself to be.

Also, her pro is a jerk but she's infatuated with him.

Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by terence2
8/19/2008  8:50:00 AM
I sympathise with your ( and all seekers ) search.

Of course there are going to be ladies with ulterior motives ( as there are , men ). but.... i would not despair as quickly as you have seem to have done.

I would lay down some ground rules from the git go.

Agreement on... Cost, Location for lessons, practice time and floor fees.

Coaching regularity , and future aspirations .

Until that has been settled, to both satisfactions, then practice time only on a trial basis.

I know of one lady in Atlanta right now ( very talented ) and dedicated ,middle forties (?) attractive, very slim and single.. shes about 5.8 in heels and does both Amer. and Intern. style to about a novice-- prechamp level .
They are out there.. ya just gotta keep on looking .
there is a studio in Marietta which has regular fri, nite dances ( i used to work out of there ) there have been several really good lady prospects for Comp. work ( that was 3yrs back ) worth looking into .
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by jofjonesboro
8/19/2008  9:31:00 AM
Terence, thank you for your thoughtful response.

We did have an original agreement. She always wanted to change it because - as she claimed - she has teenaged children and complained about her budget being stretched thin. It turned out that her "needs" had nothing to do with her family.

Still, your advice is very sound.

Except for her age, the lady that you describe sounds as though she'd be a good match. At which studio does she dance?

I know the studio that you mention in Marietta. I have danced there often in the past and took some classes there for a while some years back. I used to inquire regularly about potential partners but was always told that no one was interested (possibly because I'm not very good looking ).

I haven't despaired. I currently have a partner in Dalton but the distance limits us to two sessions a week (she lives in Chattanooga). Right now, she's having some family problems so it's been spotty but I'm going to try to stick with her. I'd like to work with someone in Atlanta as well because two days a week is just not enough for me (my Dalton partner knows what I'm doing; she works with someone else in Chattanooga too).

Thanks again for your supportive response.

Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by terence2
8/19/2008  11:43:00 PM
I used to teach the beginners class every week for about a yr in 03/04 (?)
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by anymouse
8/19/2008  9:45:00 AM
"Anonymous. It only takes one rotten apple to spoil the barrel."

And there you are mistaken.

Due to the skating system of mark tabulation used, under most circumstances an outlying mark has no greater effect than a mark one place above or below the norm. The marks are NOT averaged, instead the algorithm finds the placement at which a majority of judges have marked you at or better, specifically to reduce the way in which an outlying mark could distort an average.

Lets say a couple "deserves" 6th place, but their coach marks them first. Unless they are tied with someone in the ordinary tabulation, that first place mark is no different than a 5th place mark in it's effect.

And the opposite is true as well. A couple who "deserves" first receiving a 6th place mark from their teacher's arch-enemy will in the absence of a tie be no more adversely affected than if that "bad apple" had marked them second.

Corruption and favoritism are bad, no question about it. But a single "bad apple" can do very little damage. The placement you get is the placement that a majority of judges thought you should have, and not the average of what they all marked you.

"Would it be fairer if the judging panel stood aside at the completion of each dance and another panel took their place.. Why not."

It would be outrageously expensive to staff competitions with that many judges. Ordinarily you have two to three times as many as are working, but that's so that they can go on real breaks, not be standing up and sitting down after every dance or round.

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