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Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by anymouse
8/24/2008  9:40:00 PM
"Anonymous. So all of your writting tells us nothing. Is it possible under the Skating system for a pair to score more firsts and not win. "

It's always possible to score more firsts and not win. Thats part of what projects us from biased or simply bad judges who give outlying marks.

Winning requires securing a majority of marks for a higher place than anyone else, and in the cited example that did not happen in enough dances for the couple that the author thinks should have won.

The article you reference is very misleading - it acts as if the judges award overall placements for five dances combined, which they simply do not. As a result, the situation as literally cited never occurred, because the marks referenced simply do not exist - there are no rules in the book for combining placements in each dance by judge to determining overall 5-dance placements by judge, so it's impossible to have a majority of them.

Instead, if you follow the rules that do exist in the book, you award first in each dance to the couple who secures high placements from a majority of judges, and then the overall winner is determined by combining the placements per dance.

"Did it actually happen. And you never answered yes or no to . If there are three judges. Three competitors. Two of the judges are judging their own . What chance has the third couple got. Would you give them any chance."

If they are better than the others, yes. A judge who mis marks couples is simply embarrassing himself. But as I've said repeatedly, a competition with only three judges is too small to be taken seriously.
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by Polished
8/25/2008  3:12:00 PM
Anonymous. A competition with only three judges is too small to be taken seriously.
Try telling that to a young lady who has bought a new dress practised hard , been to the hairdesser.paid special attention to her make up. It is as important for that couple as it would be if it was the final at the British. What would you say if I told you that after the event one of the three judges ,who she didn't know from a bar of soap, came over and said I don't know how you didn't win that event. I marked you first.The other two both went out of time. You he added were in time and together . The other two weren't. If you think this is an isolated case I don't know were you have been hiding. No judge should judge their own pupils. If it were found that they did they should be banned from judging. Do you agree.
If you don't you must be as dishonest as they are.
I would suggest that you now look at the thread below " Unfair Judging "
Which seems to have suddenly disapeared for some reason.
I just looked at your coments earlier.
8.19.08 You made it very clear that you are in favour of judges judging their own pupils .
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by anymouse
8/25/2008  3:30:00 PM
"Anonymous. A competition with only three judges is too small to be taken seriously.
Try telling that to a young lady who has bought a new dress practised hard , been to the hairdesser.paid special attention to her make up."

Such an event can be a great way for a partnership to rehearse and put their best effort forward. But it should not be though of as a "real" competition. An event which violates usual rules and procedures that seriously, such as by having only three judges, is quite likely to have other procedural violations as well.

Think of it as a fun opportunity to dance. But don't fool yourself into thinking that it necessarily means anything.

"What would you say if I told you that after the event one of the three judges ,who she didn't know from a bar of soap, came over and said I don't know how you didn't win that event. I marked you first.The other two both went out of time."

Dancing involves many factors, and timing is only one of them, not the whole story. Often times in low level events, a couple who is rhythmically on time is doing some ugly things in their dancing to get there, while one that is off time may be dancing much more naturally and gracefully, because they are not making those compromises. You see this quite often in the foxtrot - most beginners simply don't have the strength to dance in time without distorting their posture and making their movement "bumpy" and overtly rhythmic rather than smoothly flowing as a stronger and more experienced couple would.

In that circumstance, being on time has a dance quality cost that will lower your marks from some judges, while being off time is a fault that will get you low marks from others. This diversity of priorities is part of why we have large panels, and why the skating system prioritizes getting decent marks from a majority of the judges instead of getting excellent marks from a minority of them.

"No judge should judge their own pupils. If it were found that they did they should be banned from judging. Do you agree."

I absolutely do not agree. If you think that someone should be banned for doing what is universal and rarely problematic practice, then you are living in your own private little world of unreality. The rest of us spend our time dancing in the real world, and improving our skills to earn marks from all of the honest judges.

If you want something to worry about, try the real problems that do plague smaller events unable to hire enough top-notch judges to always have a fully expert and attentive panel: fatigue, incompetence and intoxication...
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by Polished
8/25/2008  3:37:00 PM
Anonymous. Answer the question and don't give me pharagraphs of dribble which I class as a smoke screen.
Answer. Do you believe that judges should judge their own pupils. Do you believe that it is fair that judges should be allowed to judge there own pupils. Is this an ideal situation.
Yes Yes Yes or No No No to the three questions is all that is needed nothing more..
Look at Unfair Judging by Unhappy
12. 9 . 2005 and Jonathans answer.
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by anymouse
8/25/2008  3:58:00 PM
"Anonymous. Answer the question and don't give me pharagraphs of dribble which I class as a smoke screen.
Answer. Do you believe that judges should judge their own pupils."

I already answered your question numerous times:

August 19

"I don't believe it is ideal, but banning it would mean either that the best available experts are not available as judges, or are not available as teachers. "

August 19 (again)

"I disagree. I don't think it's ideal, but I'd rather have experts who teach the competitors than 2nd rate dancers who aren't expert enough for any competitors to want to study with them."

August 19 (yet again - busy day!)

"I've said repeatedly that having the teachers judging their students is not ideal, but that it's preferable to having second rate teacher or judges."

------------------------

Try reading sometime... before you post again in pretend ignorance of the fact that your question has already been answered so many times.
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by Polished
8/25/2008  4:19:00 PM
Anonymous. I think when Jonathan wrote. The longer you hang around the competetive world, the more you'll realize the extent of politics, but you'll'learn to play them to your advantage. And he goes on to say That if you want to step up a notch , it doesn't hurt to take lessons with other coaches. That's not selling out...thats being smart.
Anonymous. If you were judging and two were dancing out of time Would you mark them over one couple who was perfectly in time. Yes or No.
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by jofjonesboro
8/25/2008  4:38:00 PM
"Jonathan wrote. The longer you hang around the competetive world, the more you'll realize the extent of politics, but you'll'learn to play them to your advantage. And he goes on to say That if you want to step up a notch , it doesn't hurt to take lessons with other coaches. That's not selling out...thats being smart."

Could you show me where Jonathan made such statements? I'm not disputing your recall; I would just like to read his exact words.

The implications of such remarks are very troubling.

jj
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by anymouse
8/25/2008  5:34:00 PM
http://www.ballroomdancers.com/Message_Board/view_messages.asp?Topic=8034

If you read the original, it's much less alarming than polished makes it out to be:

Jonathan wrote:

"The longer you hang around the competitive world, the more you'll realize the extent of the politics, but you'll also learn how to play them to your advantage. That doesn't mean that you have to be a total sell-out, but there are certain simple things you can do to minimize the negative effects on you. For example, be nice to everyone, make a lot of friends, and don't speak poorly of anyone EVER (even your greatest rival, even though you KNOW he's nowhere near as good a dancer as you).

If you want to step it up a notch, it doesn't hurt to take lessons with other coaches. That's not selling out... that's being smart. And often, you'll find that the lessons are really good, too. Selling out is taking lessons purely for political purposes (especially when you know you're not going to get anything out of it). But if a lesson has educational value, take it. You will improve your dancing, and any political gains are purely coincidental."
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by jofjonesboro
8/26/2008  6:32:00 AM
True, "alarming" would not be the correct term to describe this situation.

"Sad" would be.

jj

Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by anymouse
8/25/2008  5:09:00 PM
"Anonymous. If you were judging and two were dancing out of time Would you mark them over one couple who was perfectly in time. Yes or No."

Timing is only one of many factors, so I would mark the couple whose overall dancing is best. That might be the one who is on time if they are good in other respects, or it might be one who is clearly better them in all respects except for being off time. There is no single factor that outweighs all others.

My marks would then be combined under that skating system with those of a number of other judges, each having their own perspective and priorities. The winner will be the couple who convinces a majority of us that they are the best on the floor.

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