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Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by jofjonesboro
8/26/2008  6:32:00 AM
True, "alarming" would not be the correct term to describe this situation.

"Sad" would be.


Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by anymouse
8/25/2008  5:09:00 PM
"Anonymous. If you were judging and two were dancing out of time Would you mark them over one couple who was perfectly in time. Yes or No."

Timing is only one of many factors, so I would mark the couple whose overall dancing is best. That might be the one who is on time if they are good in other respects, or it might be one who is clearly better them in all respects except for being off time. There is no single factor that outweighs all others.

My marks would then be combined under that skating system with those of a number of other judges, each having their own perspective and priorities. The winner will be the couple who convinces a majority of us that they are the best on the floor.
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by jofjonesboro
8/25/2008  5:17:00 PM
anymouse, you may have already clarified this point. If so, excuse me.

I have two questions. First, do you judge? If so, have you judged your own students in heats wherein they competed against dancers who were not your students?

Just curious.

Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by Polished
8/25/2008  9:54:00 PM
Anonymous. If you are out of time you should not be looked at twice. Will somebody else confirm that in the US it doesn't matter if you are dancing out of time in a competition.
Terence might be interested in this one. Len Scrivener was the sole judge in a low grade Waltz competition He refused to give anybody a place. He scraped the lot.
Terence would you mark anybody who was dancing out of time over somebody who was dancing in time.
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by terence2
8/25/2008  11:04:00 PM
Thats not a black and white Q... I will give you 2 e.g. .. these are factual..

I was judging a Prof mambo comp in the late 70s.. a 6 couple final.. next to me, was a world reknowned coach in Latin... he turned to me and said ( which made laugh ) " Terence, if you see anyone on time, lets mark them 1st. ! "

Second.. this was stated by A. Moore..... a student asked him this Q.. " Mr Moore if I were off time ( it was Cha ) would you mark me ? ".. his response.. " Yes, as long as you stayed on the same beat " .

To mark any competitor over another, one has to take multi things into consideration.It would depend on how often and in what circumstance .

"Off time " was always considered one of the cardinal sins in dance.

Now , obviously if it were W, I would not even consider marking.. I might give a little more latitude if it were QS, Mambo/Salsa .

And, all of this is contingent on the level of the comp. ( Novice.. pre champ etc ).
Judging large rounds is never an easy task, and "catching " someone off time might be an isolated instance .This goes towards explaining why sometimes you see very different marks ( or no marks ) in larger events.. the disparity is usually minimal in Finals .
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by Polished
8/26/2008  2:25:00 AM
Terence2 When Alex said Yes , as long as you stayed on the same beat..Is it possible he was thinking Quickstep and Foxtrot where some dancers not knowing any better even walk in with a prep step on 1 2. in the Quickstep as well as the Foxtrot. From there they are in time but out of rhythm which also means they will be out of phrase.
My parents had lessons with Alex. He was fanatical about footwork, timing and dancing together as a pair.Maybe he thought the Cha a bit of a joke. Latin wasn't really his cup of tea.
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by terence2
8/27/2008  12:53:00 AM
The Q was specifically about Cha.. it was published in his news letter .

The way latin was danced then WAS a joke !!... and, altho. strict, he was still poss. the most approachable of the many high profile teachers of the time (40s/50s ).

On my visit to the UK with my then wife ( 1983 ), we lived around the corner from his studio for a while.

Went by his studio to say hello with one of my friends, got to chatting with Eliz. Romain about latin, she then asked me if we were going to the UK at Hamm.. Palais , I said maybe... she replied, why not come and sit with me in the balcony? .. ( we did ) they were both very genorous with their time .
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by anymouse
8/27/2008  8:22:00 AM
"Anonymous. If you are out of time you should not be looked at twice."

Timing is only one of several factors.

If you cast yourself as a single-issue judge, then what you basically say is you don't really care about anything else - smoothness, posture, partnering, etc - all irrelevant unless the couple achieves YOUR PERSONAL IDEA of proper timing.

For example, I would be quite hesitant to mark a couple who dances their foxtrot precisely on the beat, but does this by executing it with a character of movement that looks more like tango than foxtrot. If there were a couple next to them dancing with flowing foxtrot character but with less precise timing, I would probably place them higher, since they showing a better understanding of what the foxtrot is about.

"Will somebody else confirm that in the US it doesn't matter if you are dancing out of time in a competition."

Of course it matters. But it is only ONE FACTOR AMONGST MANY. All of which are important. Because it is only one factor, it is indeed sometimes possible for a couple who is "off time" to place ahead of one who isn't, if their dancing is better when ALL ASPECTS are taken into consideration.
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by Polished
8/27/2008  3:26:00 PM
Anonymous. Originally the discusion was about Latin and Cha Cha in particular. If you remember It was three judges with three couples on the floor. Two of the judges each had a pupil dancing. Those two couples danced out of time and were not dancing together.One of the judges, a complete stranger afterwards made a point of finding the couple who came last and telling them that he didn't know how they didn't win, and that he had marked them first. He also said the other two couples both danced out of time.
Tragiclly this is not an isolated case.And what is even more tragic it will continue unless something is done about it.
I told the young lady. If you are not going to become part of one of the studios and wish to compete for the fun of it. Why not enter into events that you know you cannot win. For example if you are in the over 50's then dance in the under 50's in as high a grade that is allowed. If you are over 35 then dance as an adult which is under 35 instead of the Senior events.. And if you are under 35 which makes you the Adult level then enter way above your grade.You must study the system and use it to your best advantage.
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by anymouse
8/28/2008  7:02:00 AM
"It was three judges with three couples on the floor"

"And what is even more tragic it will continue unless something is done about it."

And the obvious thing to do about it is to hire more than three judges! And not just bodies, but people who are real experts with standing in the community.

This is pretty much a universal requirement for any sanctioned competition. If you want to hold an informal, low-budget local competition with only three judges, that's fine. But you'll get what you pay for - the opportunity for a lot of fun, but marks that don't necessarily mean much.

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