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Re: BlahBlahBlah BlahBlah
Posted by anymouse
9/14/2008  5:11:00 PM
"One other thing that is related is that every first step of any figure you can find is straight without any turn untill the end of."

Not true.

In classic technique the direction of travel is unaltered during step one, but there are steps in which official "turn" (which specifically means turn of the moving foot) occurs as step one is placed, which is quite a bit before the end of step one. We just had a go on that recently with the weave from promenade after a whisk, surely you have not forgotten already?
Re: BlahBlahBlah BlahBlah
Posted by anymouse
9/14/2008  5:18:00 PM
"You still have not explained the difference between a student's ability to identify a step and the same student's ability to execute it when told to do so. Guess what? There is none."

The subject is not a step, but a property of a step.

There is a substantial difference between understanding an idea enough to apply it when instructed to (which is what we'd be aiming for with a beginner - when it says CBMP, place the moving leg across your body), vs. being able to figure out when in a sequence of movements such a technique should be used based on an in-depth understanding of its definition and the mechanics of the piece of dancing being attempted.

It is, as I said before, the difference between being qualified to read a book, and being qualified to write one.
Re: BlahBlahBlah BlahBlah
Posted by jofjonesboro
9/15/2008  6:26:00 AM
But more importantly, the reason I maintain it's unecessary to bring this into the answer to a beginner question is that a beginner dancer does not need to know when to say a step can or cannot be considered to be be placed CBMP, they need to know what to do when an expert has written that it should be placed in CBMP.



There is a substantial difference between understanding an idea enough to apply it when instructed to (which is what we'd be aiming for with a beginner - when it says CBMP, place the moving leg across your body), vs. being able to figure out when in a sequence of movements such a technique should be used based on an in-depth understanding of its definition and the mechanics of the piece of dancing being attempted.


The concept of CBMP hardly qualifies as "in-depth" knowledge. It's impossible to teach the bronze Standard syllabus without it.

Any instructor who teaches CBMP without also explaining its purpose isn't much of an instructor.

Finally, you are incorrect to claim that CBM and CBMP have nothing in commmon except nomenclature.

The disagreement is specifically with this idea that you can only understand CBMP in relation to CBM.

It's false - they are seperate concepts and it's easier to learn what each really means on its own, than to worry about why some dance teachers once, perhaps unwisely, named one in allusion to the other.


Both the movement and the position (which is part of the movement) are taught for the same reason.

jj



Re: BlahBlahBlah BlahBlah
Posted by anymouse
9/15/2008  7:15:00 AM
"The concept of CBMP hardly qualifies as "in-depth" knowledge."

We'll get to that in a minute.

"It's impossible to teach the bronze Standard syllabus without it."

Indeed, but it does not need to be presented in a way as arcane as it's definition. It can instead be presented as its practical impact: step diagonally across your body.

"Any instructor who teaches CBMP without also explaining its purpose isn't much of an instructor."

Generally agree, however the definition says absolutely nothing about purpose. I'd much favor explanation of the practical impact and the purpose to messing about with a definition that confuses a fair fraction of even the professionals.

Now as for the utility of the definition itself, I'll ask your opinion on the following statement by a professional dance teacher. Do you agree with it? Do you find it demonstrates understanding of the definition of CBMP, or misunderstanding?

"For example, if your first step is forward on the right foot with the turn to the right, you would first wind up by turning the body to the left before you begin. As you take your first step forward, you start turning right so as to unwind. You want to turn so that when the step is complete, your body is squared off to the feet. If you overturn, you'll be in CBMP, which is wrong."

Would you agree with this author, who seems to hold the belief that if your CBM body turn results in an opposite side lead, you have achieved CBMP during that step?
Re: BlahBlahBlah BlahBlah
Posted by jofjonesboro
9/15/2008  9:38:00 AM
"For example, if your first step is forward on the right foot with the turn to the right, you would first wind up by turning the body to the left before you begin. As you take your first step forward, you start turning right so as to unwind. You want to turn so that when the step is complete, your body is squared off to the feet. If you overturn, you'll be in CBMP, which is wrong."

Would you agree with this author, who seems to hold the belief that if your CBM body turn results in an opposite side lead, you have achieved CBMP during that step?


If the body is square to the feet then you do not have a leading side.

jj
Re: BlahBlahBlah BlahBlah
Posted by anymouse
9/15/2008  10:03:00 AM
"If the body is square to the feet then you do not have a leading side."

That was not the question. Please take a look at the last two sentences of the quote again:

"You want to turn so that when the step is complete, your body is squared off to the feet. If you overturn, you'll be in CBMP, which is wrong."

Do you agree with this author's belief that if CBM turn goes beyond body square to feet and results in an opposite side lead, then CBMP has been achieved?

Do you find that idea to be in keeping with the definition of CBMP, or in contradiction to it?
Re: BlahBlahBlah BlahBlah
Posted by jofjonesboro
9/15/2008  11:11:00 AM
Do you agree with this author's belief that if CBM turn goes beyond body square to feet and results in an opposite side lead, then CBMP has been achieved?


First of all, we don't know that your inference is indeed this author's belief. The author may simply have written the sentence poorly.

However, I will respond to your supposition.

We can assume that the phrase "squared off to the feet" means that the shoulders are perpendicular to the direction of the feet at the end of the step. We must also assume that the feet have identical alignments.

One reason that I say that the sentence may be poorly written is the lack of clarity created by the use of the word "step," which can mean one relocation of one foot or a pattern of steps, what I usually call a figure.

If we further assume that the feet are together then obviously there could be no CBMP.

If, however, we assume that the feet are not together then the question of CBMP would depend on the relative position of the feet to each other.

jj
Re: BlahBlahBlah BlahBlah
Posted by anymouse
9/15/2008  11:35:00 AM
"However, I will respond to your supposition."

The question is really much more fundamental than you are making it out to be:

Can body turn (CBM) result in CBMP on that same step?

Or does that conflict with the part of the definition of CBMP ("but without turning the body") that some were considering so critical?

Note that I am not talking about CBM and CBMP occuring on the same step (we should all know that is frequent), I am talking specifically about CBMP that is caused by CBM body turn on that same step.

If you believe this is possible, then what is the meaning of "but without turning the body" in the definition?

If you believe it's not possible, then how can the subject of CBMP be simple when even the pros are getting it wrong?
English 101 for dancers
Posted by jofjonesboro
9/15/2008  12:35:00 PM
The text in question: "The placing of the stepping foot, forward or back, onto or across the line of the other foot, giving the appearance of CBM having been used, but without turning the body."


Unfortunately, the original author was not a very good writer, especially with regard to punctuation. The last comma is unnecessary and actually distorts the clarity of the phrase.

Therefore, the last part of the text should read: "giving the appearance of CBM having been used but without turning the body."

Clearly - at least to myself - the author is trying to say that a dancer in CBMP appears to have just executed CBM except that the body is not turned.

Can body turn (CBM) result in CBMP on that same step?


Your question is a bit ambiguous. If by "result in CBMP" you mean that the step ends in CBMP then the answer is obviously "no." If, however, you mean that CBMP is approximated at some point during the movement then the answer would be "yes."

jj


Re: English 101 for dancers
Posted by anymouse
9/15/2008  1:16:00 PM
"Your question is a bit ambiguous. If by "result in CBMP" you mean that the step ends in CBMP then the answer is obviously "no." If, however, you mean that CBMP is approximated at some point during the movement then the answer would be "yes.""

If by approximated you mean "looks like" then I would agree:

CBM body turn looks a lot like CBMP (or conversely CBMP looks a lot like strong CBM has been used), but it isn't.

Except that a number of professionals (including Jonathan who runs this site) are of the opinion that CBM which takes you beyond being square does mean that CBMP has been achieved...

...which gets back to my point that the subject is one complicated enough to confuse even the professionals, and a more directly application-oriented explanation is appropriate for introducing it to beginners.

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