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Re: Foot Position in Laird's Technique
Posted by Guest
10/25/2012  3:48:00 AM
I guess I've misunderstood your main point .I thought the you had a problem with the position of the foot (which is at the end of the step, indeed "backward and to the side". This gives the lady the opportunity to perform a bwd walk on the next move).
Now, if I understand you correctly, the term "Normal" FWT is the issue.
Well, I've got to admit that you've got a point there, although I failed to see the definition of "normal" (in terms of "distance" and "direction").
So, I guess that what you've pointed out make sense *only* if you treat "normal" FWT as taking a "full stride" directly fwd (which I'm not sure is the correct interpretation of the term).
I'll be more than happy of any further information on the subject.
Best regards,
Re: Foot Position in Laird's Technique
Posted by BioSimon
10/25/2012  6:00:00 AM
@Guest: exactly - I would be inclined to call the action here a "Side Step Turning" instead... please correct me if I'm wrong
Re: Foot Position in Laird's Technique
Posted by socialdancer
10/26/2012  7:12:00 AM
Is nobody prepared to consider the possibility of a mis-print? Substitute a B for the F and step 2 becomes a Bwd walk turning, which is effectively what the other technique books describe.

Remember we are discussing the basic Fan, not the hip twist which does use a fwd walk turning but with more turn so that the ending foot position becomes back and to the side.

The basic fan is so rarely danced nowadays except in the very early beginner stage that we tend to forget that it exists in its own right.
Re: Foot Position in Laird's Technique
Posted by Guest
10/28/2012  3:42:00 AM
O.Z. wrote: "...Take one Checked Backward..."

SocialDancer wrote: "...Substitute a B for the F and step 2 becomes a Bwd walk turning..."

Never heard of these terms. Can someone please clarify what is a "checked backward walk" and what is "backward walk turning" ?

It seems that while BioSimon is trying to figure out the *logic* of using the term Normal FWT in regard to the lady's part of the Fan, others seems to be throwing misleading (or even non-existing) terms....
Re: Foot Position in Laird's Technique
Posted by socialdancer
10/30/2012  3:43:00 AM
Guest, you will notice that O.Z. always tries to take a discussion away from the original question, complaining about the word basic (or plain, simple, standard, ordinary, unadulterated) and then confusing Fan with 'fan position' and going on about alemana, hockey stick etc, and referring to the lady's swivel on 4,1 of the previous bar which does not apply to a "basic" Fan. If you read through the forum you will note his distinctive style appears under several nom-de-plumes.

Re the Backward Walk Turning, please see man's step 3 (lady's step 6) of the basic movement.

Laird is AFAIK unique in the use of "action used" and although it can be useful IMHO it can also lead to confusion as in this case.

In my 1988 edition Laird starts the figure in close hold.
Step 1 has the lady LF fwd in (line with partner) so on step 2 the man's LF will obstruct any forward movement so she cannot take a FWT but must step to the side at least or, subject to body turn, step back as described in the ISTD book. On this site Jonathan says "Right foot back and slightly to side." which tallies with Laird's foot position.

But! Laird also allows for a precede of 'Fwd walks in Shadow Pos'. From this position the lady will use a FWT as well as making additional turn.
Re: Foot Position in Laird's Technique
Posted by Guest
10/30/2012  10:22:00 PM
socialdancer:
"...Re the Backward Walk Turning, please see man's step 3 (lady's step 6) of the basic movement...."

I'm well aware of the action used during the basic movement. I was referring to BioSimon's original issue: the Fan.

In this context, following the lady's FWD walk, I fail to see how can one consider a BWT ??

If we'll refer back to BioSimon original issue, he's got a point *if* one considers "normal FWT" as "full stride" fwd.
IMHO, the lady's position is set according to the man's lead and position, so the *action* should still be referred to as FWT.

Guest.
Re: Foot Position in Laird's Technique
Posted by socialdancer
10/31/2012  9:59:00 AM
Sorry Guest, I was responding to your question: "Never heard of these terms. Can someone please clarify what is a "checked backward walk" and what is "backward walk turning" ?"

I think we are agreed that BioSimon has a point that there is inconsistency in the use of the term FWT. In his first post BioSimon gives two examples of FWT with 1/8 turn to L, starting from similar positions but ending with very different foot positions. These foot positions have effectively 1/4 body turn to L between them, which is consistent with the lady's action during a hip-twist to fan position.

Laird's introduction of the 'action used' column in his charts was very useful, but I feel it would be more beneficial and less confusing if it is only used when the action is significant. IMHO in many cases, such as the one being discussed, the attribution of an action used is rather artificial.

Out of curiosity I check Laird's 1972 Green Book, which gave more details than later editions. That gives lady's step 2 as "RF fwd and slightly to side to finish RF back and slightly to side." while the man has a leading action "Lead lady to L side by tension in both arms."

For the lady to move fwd at all requires the man's shaping which results in the overall turn of 1/8 L which is common to most basic figures. In the UK at least it is common for beginners to be taught the basic movement and Fan without this 1/8 turn (an ISTD suggestion). As a result, the lady's step 2 does tend to become a sideways or even bwd step, turning.
Re: Foot Position in Laird's Technique
Posted by BioSimon
11/1/2012  12:45:00 PM
Thanks a lot, everyone!

socialdancer, your last post totally makes sense, and has resolved my issue, thanks a lot! If the step is really taken not only forward, but also to the side, the foot position makes sense - too bad it was not described this way in the Red Book! I have been dancing for decades and I really love Walter Laird's technique, but I still find the Red Book extremely difficult to understand when checking some details.

Any idea how and where I could get my hands on the Green Book? It seems to contain much more useful information! Thanks for any suggestions!

Greetings,
Simon

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