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Re: cha cha confusion
Posted by nloftofan1
8/27/2015  9:26:00 AM
Neither reply so far directly addresses the confusion that trischg reported: The way she was taught Cha-Cha, the lady's basic movement begins with a prep step on her R foot followed by a forward rock with her L foot (man does natural opposite); the instructions on the Ballroomdancers.com website starts with a prep step on the lady's L foot followed by a BACK rock with her R foot. Yes, the way trischg learned Cha-Cha is the way I learned it, and that's how it is described in the DVIDA manual (copyright 2000) that I'm looking at now. The Ballroomdancers.com foot positions are opposite. But once you have danced several basic movements in a row, does it matter? The entire basic movement requires two measures of music, and the only question is which half you use to start it (along with the secondary question, "Does it matter?").
Re: cha cha confusion
Posted by Waltz123
8/28/2015  12:01:00 AM
Yes, the way trischg learned Cha-Cha is the way I learned it, and that's how it is described in the DVIDA manual (copyright 2000) that I'm looking at now. The Ballroomdancers.com foot positions are opposite.


Allow me to shed more light on why this decision was made...

In terms of exactly which point you consider the beginning and end of a figure, there is no absolute right and wrong. DanceVision, along with most of the syllabi that came before them, start nearly all of their figures with the man's LF side on count 1. This has advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is that it is never necessary to clarify the difference between how individual figures are broken down, and how people typically start the dance. If you compose your syllabus with all figures starting on the LF, and then tell people to always start the dance on the LF, there is no possibility for confusion. This is a clear advantage to this method.

However, BallroomDancers has a different approach than most American style syllabi, one inspired in part by the International style, which is more granular in its breakdown of figures. A higher degree of granularity has distinct advantages of its own, especially when it comes to American style. American has its roots in social dancing, which is naturally more improvisational. So it stands to reason that it should lean more toward the learning of individual components and the various ways one might mix them together, and less toward the learning of extended groups of choreography.

And yet, if you look at most American syllabi from DanceVision to ISTD to the chain schools, their figures all tend to be composed of sequences and amalgamations to varying degrees of length -- typically longer and longer as the syllabus progresses through the more advanced levels, but even present at the beginning levels of bronze in some cases. This is no accident, as this approach comes with a notable advantage: It relieves the student of the burden of arranging their own sequences, and simplifies learning. But it's a double-edged sword: It also robs them of the ability to structure things in their own way, and diminishes floorcraft, as well as leading and following, and the ability to improvise.

The Cha Cha Basic, of course, is the same length no matter what you think of as the beginning point of the pattern. But take the Cross-Body Lead, for example: The true starting point of this figure is less disputable: It begins with the man's LF forward rock, and ends with his chasse to R. In order to conform to the "all figures must start on the man's LF side step on 1" rule, the other schools insert an extraneous 1/2 basic at the beginning of the figure.

As it turns out, a great many American style Cha Cha figures begin at the point of the man's LF rock, and finish at the point of his RF chasse. Not all of them do -- in fact, some are seemingly arbitrary, such as the "mirror image" figures like Crossovers forward and back, Crossover Turns, Fifth Position Breaks, etc. But if you consider the choice arbitrary on those figures, it doesn't hurt to keep it on the same foot as the rest of the figures, in the name of consistency. This was essentially the thought process that led to starting most of the figures on the man's LF forward rock (plus the initial prep on his RF).

(continued in next post...)
Re: cha cha confusion
Posted by Waltz123
8/28/2015  12:03:00 AM
(continued from previous post...)

By the way, even those mirror image figures like Crossovers are not entirely arbitrary, as far as the starting foot is concerned. Look at any syllabus, and the first Crossover is the one forward on the man's LF. That's generally agreed upon. However, rather than presenting the figure as one rock and one chasse to each side, the other schools will always begin in closed position with a half-basic. A half-basic is not a Crossover. It's a half-basic. Worse still, many of them will tack an underarm turn on the end. That's not a basic figure, that's choreography. And it's ultimately a disservice to the students who study the syllabus. At the very least, it should be seen as a basic disadvantage to this method.

To avoid all that, rather than inserting an entire half-basic in front of most of the figures, we cut the fat and inserted only one single step, and then labeled it a "prep step", to indicate that it is not officially part of the figure. We could have eliminated the prep and started directly with the man's LF rock step, similar to the ISTD Int'l syllabus, which would have remedied the perceptions some people have of the figures seeming "reversed". But this solution has problems of its own. In particular, the prep frequently aids in illustrating the transition from the previous figure. In this way, the prep concept serves a similar purpose to adding a half-basic in front, but with less clutter and a more clearly defined entry point.

At any rate, the purpose of this long-winded essay, in addition to giving you some insight into the thought process behind our methodology, is to point out that there is no best or perfect way to compose a syllabus. Each choice along the way has advantages and disadvantages. Our choices may occasionally appear to be swimming against the current. But it's not right or wrong -- It's just a choice, based on a philosophy. Early on in the development we made a decision that one of the ways we wanted to set this syllabus apart from any other is to take a more component-based approach, rather than serving up pre-packaged sequences. This underlying philosophy has had quite a ripple effect, impacting even some of the smallest and seemingly unrelated details. The starting point of the Cha Cha figures is one of them.

Just remember, in the end we're all teaching the same thing. When you really study this stuff, you'll realize that the Cha Cha figures described here are not "backwards" or "reversed" at all. We're not telling our viewers to start their Cha Cha in a different way. At most, we're simply asking them to *look* at it in a different way, with the hope that doing so will give them a better understanding of how the smaller pieces of the puzzle fit together.

Regards,
Jonathan
Re: cha cha confusion
Posted by nloftofan1
9/1/2015  10:47:00 AM
What Jonathan says makes perfect sense. Sometimes it helps to put a half Basic or full Basic between figures (my regular partner says it makes things easier for her in some cases). But (using one of his examples) when you put a half Basic before a Crossover Break it's just that: a half Basic. And (as is the case in many sylabi) an underarm turn may make a nice ending after doing a few crossovers, but there are other endings.
Re: cha cha confusion
Posted by terence2
9/6/2015  2:04:00 AM
There is an important reason WHY latin dances commence in a specific direction.. The genre is based upon " call and response ". This is the basis from which the original formats were based. Looking back to origins, the format was/is religious based ( Santeria ) .

In the classic form of Rumba ( NOT the BR one )the lady ( both are dancing solo ) invites the man to approach her, swirling her skirt.. hence the "call and response ".

This would dictate that, the latin dances should commence forward, but, there's another important component to recognise..and that's, the direction of the 2nd beat in the 1st bar, again, giving us direction to commence ( forward ).

All chain schools , taught most of their latin dances, commencing back . ( Square Rumba/Bolero being the exception,) and F.A. side ways for Rumba . The prep. was the intro. to the dance..

Actually, there is possibly a reason why the backwards commence came into vogue.

" Bolero ".. is the dance ( and Danzon ), that was long established, before the current formats were invented.
Its pretty certain that Bolero, stepwise, along with Lindy,did influence many of the foundation steps in Rumba, Mambo and Cha cha ( along with Guajiras influences on Cha cha ).


Re: cha cha confusion
Posted by nloftofan1
8/30/2015  7:31:00 AM
I can only guess, but in dances that break on 2 (Cha-Cha, Mambo) the 1 beat is a prep step--implied in the case of Mambo. Following the "man's left foot moves first" (on 1) rule, the first break is a back rock.
Re: cha cha confusion
Posted by terence2
9/3/2015  6:01:00 AM


Intern. style Rumba can prep. on 1 (R foot ) and then breaks forward on 2 .

The ways of commencing specific dances, are often rooted in precedent, and again, changed to suit circumstance. There is a good argument, in each case .
B/room simplified pretty much all, by commencing Forward .
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