English
Hello, guest.

Log In or
Register
Return to Forum
« Prev40181 Messages
Page 3 of 2010
Next »
Re: Bronze Waltz
Posted by SocialDancer
11/1/2008  5:30:00 AM
"DRS is the first figure listed for study in the professional Licentiate syllabus (ie it is not studied at Associate level), but that is not quite the same thing, is it?"

It used to be. There was originally a correlation between associate/member/fellow and bronze/silver/gold.
As you say the 2006 syllabus appears to have replaced all that with "Every care should be taken to employ only those figures which suit the candidate and can be performed with ease".

On a similar tack, what is a telemark doing in a bronze routine? Even the ISTD lists that at Licentiate level.
You can only point to the most recent events for t
Posted by jofjonesboro
11/1/2008  7:11:00 AM
USA Dance changes it competitive schedule every few years. A year or so ago, Tango was not part of the Silver syllabus and now some competitions are putting it back there.

If you read further in the USA Dance rulebook, you'll see the following stipulation.


Closed or Open Championships

Gold, Silver and/or Bronze events must be offered in at least four of the following pairs of
dances. The dances in each pair may be offered either separately or combined into a two-dance
event. The dance pairs are: International Waltz and Quickstep, International Tango and
Foxtrot, International Cha-Cha and Rumba, International Samba and Jive, American Smooth
Waltz and Foxtrot, American Smooth Tango and Viennese Waltz, American Rhythm Cha-Cha
and Rumba, and American Rhythm Swing and Mambo.




jj
your claim is absurd, its been this way for ages
Posted by anymouse
11/1/2008  9:49:00 AM
"USA Dance changes it competitive schedule every few years. A year or so ago, Tango was not part of the Silver syllabus and now some competitions are putting it back there."

Tango has often been part of silver for years.

"If you read further in the USA Dance rulebook, you'll see the following stipulation.

Closed or Open Championships

Gold, Silver and/or Bronze events must be offered in at least four of the following pairs of
dances. The dances in each pair may be offered either separately or combined into a two-dance
event. The dance pairs are: International Waltz and Quickstep, International Tango and
Foxtrot, International Cha-Cha and Rumba, International Samba and Jive, American Smooth
Waltz and Foxtrot, American Smooth Tango and Viennese Waltz, American Rhythm Cha-Cha
and Rumba, and American Rhythm Swing and Mambo."

Note that the "four" refers "pairs", not to four dances. In other words, this is satisfied by offering a two dance event for each of standard, latin, smooth, and rhythm for each level.

The omission of bronze foxtrot is a reflection of the expected path of progress in the sanctioning body's impression of how dancing works. Their impressions are usually not perfectly accurate (they are volunteers, not dance experts) but are not inaccurate in this case. I would guess it will continue to be left out of their national championship - and that you'll continue to see a lot of faked heel turns and too-early weight changes in the silver version.
Re: Help on hardwood Dance Floor
Posted by anymouse
10/31/2008  11:30:00 PM
"Telemark. Something has to be put over the bare timber surface. If you were to put Wax Polish onto bare timber you would never in the future be able to coat it with a varnish of any kind. Be very carefull. Leave it to the experts."

As terence has pointed out, true dance floors maintained for that purpose will never have varnish, so the inability of applying it in the future is of no concern whatsoever.

Many more commercial studios will use a varnish/polyurethance/etc finish, either out of traditional ignorance in the dance industry (which is not the same as the tradition of dance expertise), or for aesthetic reasons. If the finish is well chosen and has had a few months for the volatiles to evaporate it's not the end of the world.

Also if you have latin dancers who are going to oil there shoes, then a finish might make sense. But really better to prohibit this.
Re: I see that you're in one of your 'moods' again
Posted by anymouse
10/31/2008  11:39:00 PM
"This statement is utter nonsense on its face. The DRS is a standard part of the bronze repertoire and no one competes in bronze without it."

Well, you are simply wrong. Many people compete bronze without the DRS.

One of the first things the dancer has to learn is that there's a big difference between what is allowed and what is ADVISABLE. The new dancer rushes out to do all the "hard" figures - but it's not until they learn to concentrate on doing a few things well that they actually begin to advance.

"Also, a couple's competition level is pretty much always going to be lower than their current level of study."

Yes.

One should be working on the DRS as well as heel turns in general and the drive from the standing heel that makes the prerequiste stable backwards walk possible. But by the time someone can execute the DRS at competition quality, chances are they do not fit into the community of bronze dancers any more. They might still be elgible to enter, but realistically they will be out of place competing against the others there.


"Really? Every competition which I've attended"

Well then you have not been attending the more rigorous amateur syllabus events, because most of those do not traditionally offer it. Perhaps you could list where you have seen bronze international foxtrot offered?
At USA Dance Qualifying events around the SE.
Posted by jofjonesboro
11/1/2008  12:02:00 AM
The same syllabus is danced at Nationals.

I see that we're in the midst of witnessing another fulsome display of your arrogance.

But by the time someone can execute the DRS at competition quality, chances are they do not fit into the community of bronze dancers any more

Where on earth do you get this garbage? From the voices in your head?

Most bronze students who work on it consistently will be able to perform a DRS in the Waltz competently within sixth months, and basic competence is the essential expectation of bronze-level dancing.

Most amateur competitions asked students who have danced for more than two years to enter Silver or above. It does not take anywhere near even one year to develop a presentable DRS.

It's probably a year for a good telemark.



jj

Re: Help on hardwood Dance Floor
Posted by Polished
11/1/2008  2:22:00 PM
The floor that is danced on at Blackpool is through the year a convention centre and used for many other different attractions besides dancing. If you are into Darts you would know that some of the big competions are held there. The whole floor is decked out with tables and chairs . It must get scratched with the none dancing type shoes that get trodden on it.I can`t imagine that, that floor when it was first laid was wax on bare timber.
The question is . When the floor was bare boards what was the first thing that was painted over those bare boards. As I said before if you are laying a floor at home first get some expert advice from people who know.
In other places , like an Ice Rink. The Ice Palace in St Petersburg for one. They use a portable floor over the ice there. Next day its an Ice Rink again.
This did happen here. There was a small dance floor in a place where Wedding receptions were held. The floor began to look a bit worn. So it was properly prepared. cleaned and hand rubbed down and re- varnished. What they didn`t know was that when new a two pack varnish had been used. Nothing will stick to it , not even itself . The very first time the floor was used it looked as if it was covered with snow. It had to be sanded back to the bare boards and this time no two pack material was used.
Re: your claim is absurd, its been this way for ag
Posted by anymouse
11/2/2008  8:32:00 AM
"My goodness. Aren't we wearing our snobbery on our sleeves these days. Your contemptuous attitude toward dancers who may have less experience or less money to spend than you explains your behavior on this poard perfectly."

It's a lot simpler than that. A dance student fundamentally needs to develop some physical skills and strengths not present in the non-ballroom population (ex-ballet people included) before it will be possible to attempt to execute the actions of international foxtrot in a way that will flow naturally.

How do I know this? From watching, teaching - and most importantly, from trying to do it too early in my own development. Until you can sustain a gliding movement of your weight and roll your feet properly, no action in the foxtrot is going to be anything other than fake.

For this reason, most thought-out dance programs delay the introduction of the foxtrot until after a healthy amount of work developing the concepts and foot and ankle strengths of the swing dances has been done in the context of waltz, quickstep, and perhaps the rhythm foxtrot or its American cousin. It's useful to be able to give these students some real-world competition experience in the dances they are practicing on a day to day basis, hence the bronze competition division - usually offered without a foxtrot to complicate things. About the time students are ready to start working on foxtrot in lessons, they are making the bronze finals if not winning, and their first competitions ventures in foxtrot will naturally coincide with their transition to the silver division.

"Tango has been part of Silver and NOT part of Silver over the years. The schedules change."

Offerings of individual competitions may change frequently. Recommendations in sanctioning body rulebooks much less often. I think if you dig up an old rulebook, you will see that tango has a long history of recommendation at the silver level.
I understand perfectly.
Posted by jofjonesboro
11/2/2008  8:46:00 AM
How do I know this? From watching, teaching - and most importantly, from trying to do it too early in my own development. Until you can sustain a gliding movement of your weight and roll your feet properly, no action in the foxtrot is going to be anything other than fake.

You are correct. It is simple. As a beginner, you had difficulty with bronze Standard Fox Trot so it MUST be too difficult for every new dancer and they shouldn't even be allowed to learn it.

What better way could there be to develop those gliding movements than to practice figures which involve them? Unless, of course, you lack the stamina to spend enough time doing so.

Recommendations in sanctioning body rulebooks much less often. I think if you dig up an old rulebook, you will see that tango has a long history of recommendation at the silver level.

Again, you're trying to put words in my mouth. I never claimed that Tango has NEVER been part of USABDA's Silver Standard schedule. My point is that the offerings change and will continue to change.

If you dig into old rulebooks, you'll also find that Fox Trot has been part of the Bronze Standard schedule in the past and will be so again.

jj



Re: I understand perfectly.
Posted by anymouse
11/2/2008  8:57:00 AM
"How do I know this? From watching, teaching - and most importantly, from trying to do it too early in my own development. Until you can sustain a gliding movement of your weight and roll your feet properly, no action in the foxtrot is going to be anything other than fake.

You are correct. It is simple. As a beginner, you had difficulty with bronze Standard Fox Trot so it must be too difficult for every new dancer."

No, you absolutely do not understand.

As a beginner I did not have difficulty with foxtrot that I could attribute to those issues. Instead, it was only later in retrospect, looking at others and comparing to my own previous dancing that I understood what was fundamentally missing in both cases. At the time I had been quite exasperated by the lack of foxtrot offerings in bronze. Only later did I come to understand the good reason why that was so.

"What better way could there be to develop those gliding movements than to practice those moves which involve them? "

You actually can't build them this way, because without the underlying strength you will end up doing the wrong action. Only by building the foundation skills doing simpler actions (waltz, quickstep, etc) can you get to the point of physical readiness to do the foxtrot in a way that reinforces good habits rather than bad ones.

Essentially, if you start in doing all dances, your early foxtrot efforts are wasted (or in reality, counterproductive) and it is your waltz and quickstep efforts that may eventually lead to the first hints of genuine foxtrot action.

"My point is that the offerings change and will continue to change."

Not disputed. However, official recommendations have been fairly stable, and it's official recommendations that tend to be reflected in the more important competitions - for example, the national championships.

"If you dig into old rulebooks, you'll also find that Fox trot has been part of the Bonze Standard schedule in the past and will be so again."

No, you won't, because there is no "schedule" in the rulebooks. What there is is a recommendation. Can you cite a year in which the rule book included international foxtrot in the recommendation for bronze? Can you site a year in which it was competed at the USABDA national championships?
Re: your claim is absurd, its been this way for ag
Posted by jofjonesboro
11/2/2008  8:31:00 AM
The point of the quoted stipulation is that there is no official prohibition of the inclusion of the Fox Trot at the Bronze proficiency level.

The omission of bronze foxtrot is a reflection of the expected path of progress in the sanctioning body's impression of how dancing works. Their impressions are usually not perfectly accurate (they are volunteers, not dance experts) but are not inaccurate in this case. I would guess it will continue to be left out of their national championship - and that you'll continue to see a lot of faked heel turns and too-early weight changes in the silver version.

My goodness. Aren't we wearing our snobbery on our sleeves these days. Your contemptuous attitude toward dancers who may have less experience or less money to spend than you explains your behavior on this board perfectly.

Tango has been part of Silver and NOT part of Silver over the years. The schedules change.

Poorly executed moves can be seen at all levels of amateur and many levels of professional competition.



jj
Re: I understand perfectly.
Posted by jofjonesboro
11/2/2008  9:35:00 AM
You actually can't build them this way, because without the underlying strength you will end up doing the wrong action. Only by building the foundation skills doing simpler actions (waltz, quickstep, etc) can you get to the point of physical readiness to do the foxtrot in a way that reinforces good habits rather than bad ones.

OK, the rule for taking any profound action is "take seven deep breaths"and not "take seven hits from the bong."

Your statement is so ludricous on its face that I wonder about your sanity.

And how do you build those foundtion skills? Through other exercises? Guess what - you can do those other exercises incorrectly as well.

The reason for taking instruction is to learn to execute the actions properly. Practice follows instruction.

You've been accusing me of having a limited vision based on poor quality instruction. The statement quoted above clearly demonstrates that you do not understand how to use instruction.

The rulebook does not make such a recommendation. It lists which dances must be included.

With some research I will answer your questions.

jj

Added: That was easy: 1999 (1999 USABDA National Results). You can page down to or just search for "Heat 52": "Adult A Bronze International Standard (W/F/Q)."
Re: I understand perfectly.
Posted by anymouse
11/2/2008  9:45:00 AM
"And how do you build those foundtion skills? Through other exercises? Guess what - you can do those other exercises incorrectly as well."

Yes, you absolutely can do them incorrectly as well. However, when you have foot rise without outside partner in the rise condition as in waltz or quickstep, you have a much better chance of getting the elements right in isolation.

Similarly, when you have drawn out slows in rhythm foxtrot without foot rise, you have a much better chance of getting the rolling through the feet correctly.

Finally, quickstep presents the first opportunity to learn about continuity of weight movement in a situation where you can let the movements run-out safely, something that won't be possible in foxtrot until the underlying technique of the more challenging positions is sound enough to accomodate that much carry-over of movement.

What waltz and quickstep let you do is build the skills one at a time, where you have a fighting chance or practicing them right. Foxtrot makes you deal with it all on the same step, with the results that the student invariable adopts a "fake" version out of pragmatic necessity.
Re: I understand perfectly.
Posted by jofjonesboro
11/2/2008  9:57:00 AM
What waltz and quickstep let you do is build the skills one at a time, where you have a fighting chance or practicing them right. Foxtrot makes you deal with it all on the same step, with the results that the student invariable adopts a "fake" version out of pragmatic necessity.

Nonsense.

Do you have an amateur partner?



jj
Re: I understand perfectly.
Posted by anymouse
11/2/2008  4:10:00 PM
"What waltz and quickstep let you do is build the skills one at a time, where you have a fighting chance or practicing them right. Foxtrot makes you deal with it all on the same step, with the results that the student invariable adopts a "fake" version out of pragmatic necessity."

Nonsense."

Well, you can either continue to demonstrate your ignorance, or you can crack open the syllabus book and notice that bronze foxtrot has foot rise and outside partner coinciding while bronze waltz and quickstep go outside only when coming from a lowered position where the body is easily projected by a standing foot that is flat on the floor.


Re: VIENNESE WALTZ
Posted by anymouse
11/2/2008  5:15:00 PM
"Although the amount of turn is the same of course, the reverse turn feels "tighter" than the natural turn therefore and this is reflected in the different foot positions."

While the difference in turning in the two directions in the hold should not be discounted, the amount of turn in the most characteristic version is not the same either.

If you are dancing reverse turns down the long side they will have to complete a full 1/2 turn, but if you dance natural turns around the short side each one can be under-turned to add up into a nice graceful arc the width of the room.

Of course some like to curve their reverse turns around the short side, but that's a different story.
And your point would be . . . ?
Posted by jofjonesboro
11/3/2008  4:50:00 AM
Well, you can either continue to demonstrate your ignorance, or you can crack open the syllabus book and notice that bronze foxtrot has foot rise and outside partner coinciding while bronze waltz and quickstep go outside only when coming from a lowered position where the body is easily projected by a standing foot that is flat on the floor.

So what? The variance in styles does not prevent anyone from practicing all of the different movements.

You learn the moves from a competent instructor and you practice them until they are mastered.

Time on the floor is the most important aspect of any dance student's education.



jj
Re: And your point would be . . . ?
Posted by anymouse
11/3/2008  7:01:00 AM
""notice that bronze foxtrot has foot rise and outside partner coinciding while bronze waltz and quickstep go outside only when coming from a lowered position where the body is easily projected by a standing foot that is flat on the floor."

So what? The variance in styles does not prevent anyone from practicing all of the different movements."

It is a not a variance in style, it is a huge variance in physical difficulty.

Both the necessary body movement for sound outside partner action, and foot rise, are substantial challenges.

Waltz and quickstep present these challenges in isolation from each other, where the student has a chance of developing them properly.

In contrast, foxtrot's most characteristic figure, the feather, requires projecting the body into an outside partner position that is supported from the toes of one foot. Beginners cannot do this yet, so they try to dance an outside partner position without projecting the body, which is to say a fake outside partner position.

The readiness of a student to meaningfully learn the feather step is easily determined by the state of their inside partner body projection from the toe - for example, can they sustain forward movement on step two of a waltz or quickstep natural, or are they still turning off of it too early in order to keep their body weight on the strong ball of foot without having to carry it through the still weaker toe? If they haven't solved this problem in waltz or quickstep, they should keep working on it there where the substantially greater demand of body projection for outside partner does not add its requirements to that particular action.

And that's the forward half - there's a whole other class of combined issues with ankle stability in high heels when going backwards, that are again practical to sort out in the inside partner and seperately the no (body/partner) rise outside partner cases and impractical to approach in the combined case.
Re: Oh, No!-Not A Ocho! Anyone help Please!
Posted by Shellie
11/3/2008  10:58:00 AM
Terence I think you are correct. That is a huge problem, and probably always will be. Across the tango styles there are basic elements of movement, and an understood standard of correctness of movement. (Incidentally, this is how I was taught Salsa as well.) This is why my philosophy has been to focus on the very basic elements and build from there.

I can use the OPs question as an example. In this case, OP was asking two questions without knowing it. Question 1: "How do I properly execute an ocho?" and Question 2: "How do I properly embellish an ocho?" I dont want to "bash" OPs instructor, but it would appear that OPs instructor could not make the distinction between an element of movement and an embellishment of that movement. But, to take OPs question further, regardless of style, proper ocho execution would be to pull from the inner thighs, dance on inside edges of feet, maintain weight on supporting foot while rotating... When we come to matters of embellishment, or even discuss the degree of rotation, we begin to get into areas of differences that define style. Unfortunately, this is where you start finding instructors who will tell you X is correct and Y is wrong, when they are addressing issues of style, and not basic movement. Why this is done I do not really know. It could be argued they simply do not know the difference, or perhaps they are trying to market their own special style of tango... The student suffers either way.
Re: outside partner technique
Posted by jofjonesboro
11/3/2008  2:23:00 PM
A feather step requires that the already challenging large projection of the body required for an outside partner position be generated not from a flat standing foot as in waltz or quickstep, but instead from the toe of a risen standing foot.


On which step of the Feather is this "projection of the body" generated?



jj

PS
Obviously, you do not have an amateur partner.

Strange.

Still, your secret's safe with me. I won't tell anyone else on the board. I promise.
« Prev40181 Messages
Page 3 of 2010
Next »
Copyright © 1997-2014 BallroomDancers.com