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Re: outside partner technique
Posted by anymouse
11/3/2008  2:49:00 PM
"A feather step requires that the already challenging large projection of the body required for an outside partner position be generated not from a flat standing foot as in waltz or quickstep, but instead from the toe of a risen standing foot.

On which step of the Feather is this "projection of the body" generated?"

I probably should have chosen my word more carefully, as it is ideally "generated" during the downswing of the previous measure. The subject challenge however is to carry that movement energy right through the arrival onto step two so that it can result in projection of the body into an outside partner position over and beyond a risen standing foot during the portion of step three before the third step has been placed. The weaker foot of a newer dancer is not yet capable of this, especially over the lengthy amount of time that this body projection must be sustained to match the tempo of the slow foxtrot.

In contrast, in waltz or foxtrot we would be carrying the downswing's energy into an outside partner projection on step one, where the standing foot supporting the projected body is still in the much stronger position of being solidly flat on the floor.

Practicing this in the waltz and quickstep helps set the idea of what will need to be done in the foxtrot outside partner, while practice dancing a foot rise dance builds the foot strength. Finally, striving to keep the feet acting forward during steps one and two of the waltz natural briefly tests the capability of supporting the body weight in front of the toe of a risen standing foot needed for foxtrot, but without actually ruining the dance when it's not there.
Re: Bronze Waltz
Posted by Polished
11/3/2008  2:42:00 PM
All Emsachez wanted to know was how to start his Waltz.
If I were in a competition or on a crowded floor I would most likely start with a Whisk on side two ( the short side ) depending on the width. If I wanted to start on side one I would most likely start with a Travelling Contre. diag to centre. A Quick Open Reverse and leave all the others to struggle out of that side one corner. To coin a phrase. Courses for Horses depending on the situation.
Which brings me to. Thats why I would have my groups eight bar phrased. I can choose which one I will used and which to to be followed by.
Never become one who has to start exactly on that spot with exactly that routine.
Re: outside partner technique
Posted by jofjonesboro
11/3/2008  2:50:00 PM
I probably should have chosen my word more carefully, as it is ideally "generated" during the downswing of the previous measure.

But isn't that energy "generated" from a flat foot after the downswing of the first step and not a preceding figure?

What possible preceding figure would lead into a Feather on a downswing? If one did, you would have no energy for the rise at the end of step one.



jj

Re: outside partner technique
Posted by Polished
11/3/2008  2:55:00 PM
Just follow and teach the correct technique which is for the Waltz Commence to rise at the end of step one. If it is Foxtrot Rise at the end of step one. All Bronze Medal stuff.
Re: outside partner technique
Posted by anymouse
11/3/2008  3:15:00 PM
"But isn't that energy "generated" from a flat foot after the downswing of the first step and not a preceding figure?"

Supplemented a little from a muscular push, but no, most of the energy in an upswing comes from the previous downswing or body speed of the previous measure.

"What possible preceding figure would lead into a Feather on a downswing?"

The feather is not on a downswing, it is preceded by the downswing of the previous figure.

Any time we have two figures with rise with an intervening lowering we see this - the actual cycle of a swing is from step three of one measure, down, then back up to step three of the next.

An alternate source is the situation of the prep step, where you descend from standing height while also getting an additional step to gradually contribute movement energy from your muscles.

Choreographically, there would a greater number of clear downswing-upswing energy carry over opportunities for the feather finish and the back feather than for the ordinary forward feather. But regardless of where the energy came from originally, the challenge during step three of the feather action is to sustain that projection forward of the toe of a risen standing foot.

"If one did, you would have no energy for the rise at the end of step one."

The projection and body drift in step three comes from having more energy than is needed for the rise - the body does not stop in waltz, it drifts right on through while only slowing. That this movement continues into a projection of the body into an outside partner position beyond the risen toe of its standing foot is what makes step three outside partner in foxtrot so much more challenging than the step one outside partner encountered in bronze waltz and quickstep.

Waltz & Quickstep: project body into outside partner position supported from a standing foot that is flat on the floor

Foxtrot feather action: project body into outside partner position supported from the toe of a risen standing foot
I think you're completely wrong.
Posted by jofjonesboro
11/3/2008  3:36:00 PM
The energy for steps 2 and 3 of the feather comes from the power generated during the first step.

Also, this "projection of the body" that you describe as part of this difficult movement is really no big deal. The man simply comes out of the first step with a left-shoulder lead. Doing so from a toe (shorthand for "risen foot") is just as easy as doing so from a heel.



jj

Re: I think you're completely wrong.
Posted by anymouse
11/3/2008  3:57:00 PM
"The energy for steps 2 and 3 of the feather comes from the power generated during the first step."

Only if you dance in the "wasteful" way using muscles to do everything rather than letting it come from your downswings. Some people do that because they feel it makes it easier, but it makes the dance look heavy rather than effortless and floating. And it doesn't change the challenge of projecting in the risen outside partner position.

"Also, this "projection of the body" that you describe as part of this difficult movement is really no big deal."

If it was no big deal, then people would get it right. They don't - in large part because they lack the foot strength to do it. You can see the same lack of strength in the temptation to depart step one of the waltz natural sideways from the ball of foot, rather than continuing forwards over the toe, though it's not as drastically detrimental to the flow of the dance there as failing to project forwards from step two of the feather is.

"The man simply comes out of the first step with a left-shoulder lead. Doing so from a toe (shorthand for "risen foot") is just as easy as doing so from a heel."

Doing it from a toe requires that he support the entire weight of his body not just from the ball of his left foot, but ultimately from the toe of it - not because he is going up, but because he is projecting his body beyond the standing foot. In waltz or quickstep he could project from a supporting foot that is flat on the floor rather than risen.

Most newer dancers, males especially, cannot stand on one foot with the ball of the foot slightly off the ground and the toes taking the weight, which is an equivalent challenge even though the application in foxtrot is forward projection rather than vertical rise. But dancing a lot of waltz and quickstep can develop the foot and start to build that capability.

Lighter females, especially those with some childhood ballet background may be able to do it, but unfortunately in the feather they are not asked to project from a risen standing foot, instead they are asked to send their body weight backwards to and ultimately through the standing heel, something that those with either a ballet background or simply reflexes for self-preservation when wearing ordinary high heels tend to be very hesitant to do.

It occurs to me that bronze foxtrot might work better if we had the ladies do the forward outside partner action projected from a risen toe, and the men roll through their standing heel!
Why don't you stop whining?
Posted by jofjonesboro
11/3/2008  11:20:00 AM
It is a not a variance in style, it is a huge variance in physical difficulty.

If a transfer of weight is executed differently in one style or dance compared to another then there is a variance in style or dance.

"Huge variance"? Oh, come on. Like a Fox Trot heel turn is so much different from those in Waltz and Quickstep that they require different training regimens.

Still waiting for an answer on that question about your having an amateur partner.



jj
outside partner technique
Posted by anymouse
11/3/2008  11:50:00 AM
"If a transfer of weight is executed differently in one style or dance compared to another then there is a variance in style or dance."

The issue is not in the transference of weight, but in the projection of the body weight from the standing foot which must long precede the weight change. This is not a difference of "style", its, it's a drastic difference of situation and requirement.

A feather step requires that the already challenging large projection of the body required for an outside partner position be generated not from a flat standing foot as in waltz or quickstep, but instead from the toe of a risen standing foot.

Most beginners (indeed most dancers of any period of experience) who have not had focused physical training for competition purposes simply cannot do this. The result is that their outside partner actions in the foxtrot are "fake" and will remain "fake" in the sense that they are missing the required body projection.

Dancing foxtrot badly without this element does not lead towards ever developing it. Instead, drilling full actions in the context of waltz and quickstep is what tends to lead towards building the physical capability to attempt the more difficult projection-from-risen-toe action required in the foxtrot.

You can continue to ignore this, but the more you claim it to be nonsense, the more you hint that this action is probably still missing in your own dancing.

""Huge variance"? Oh, come on. Like a Fox Trot heel turn is so much different from those in Waltz and Quickstep that they require different training regimens."

I never suggested there was a huge variance between waltz and foxtrot HEEL TURNS, instead my comment that you quoted above was in a message entirely about the substantial differences in outside partner requirement, a message that made no mention of heel turns at all.

Where heel turns are concerned, my implicit raising of the SIMILARITY of the requirement between waltz and foxtrot was how we got onto the subject of bronze foxtrot in the first place. In pointing out that the double reverse spin is often not advantageous to a bronze competition effort, I raised the relatively rarity of foxtrot (which we should all recognize as the dance where heel turns are effectively mandatory, rather than optional) being offered at bronze. From there we got into the other reasons why early attempts at foxtrot are unproductive, such as the risen outside partner issue.
Re: I think you're completely wrong.
Posted by Polished
11/4/2008  2:18:00 PM
I would suggest that anybody who wishes to see rising and lowering in the Foxtrot should Google Luca and Loraine Foxtrot Demo. Click the top one
Who on earth started to use as a description of a step the word downswing. You`d finish in a hole so deep you`ll never get out on time. Lets just say lower at the end of, and not that bad shape creating other word.
Re: Bronze Waltz
Posted by Boundy Taylor
11/4/2008  8:51:00 PM
Yes, I think it is a good idea.You can start it with a Reverse turn or a Telemark. It brings the attention to the middle of the floor and it draws attention immediately.
Re: Bronze Waltz
Posted by terence2
11/5/2008  3:58:00 AM
A Telemark ??....

In all my yrs adjudicating have never , ever seen anyone " open " with this figure...

of course, one may choose any number of openings, but tradition seems to prevail .
Re: VIENNESE WALTZ
Posted by LondonBallroom
11/18/2013  11:37:00 AM
The amount of turn isn't the point, but in case the previous response (from anymouse) causes confusion I'm not sure what is meant by "the most characteristic version" but the amount of turn achieved in the chart forms of the natural and reverse turn is one whole turn for each figure. This is good technique and is the amount of turn expected in examination. Of course the natural turn is underturned at the corner but not "around the short side" or any other side. One could achieve a sort of arc by dancing three naturals in succession, the first and last each cutting a corner. Cutting corners as a matter of course is frowned upon by examiners, however.

http://www.goballroom.co.uk

Re: VIENNESE WALTZ
Posted by Anonymous
11/5/2008  10:40:00 AM
"I'm not sure what is meant by "the most characteristic version" but the amount of turn achieved in the chart forms of the natural and reverse turn is one whole turn for each figure."

The most characteristic execution of Viennese Waltz as a dance would curve around the short side using natural turns which turn less than a half turn.

Therefore, in actual practice the amount of turn commonly used in the natural turn is NOT the same as that used in the reverse turn, but a bit less.

A full half turn natural feels different that the under turned one usually employed.

"Cutting corners as a matter of course is frowned upon"

Going fully into the corners in Viennese waltz does not fit with the flow of the dance which is more naturally oval in shape.
Re: Bronze Waltz
Posted by Polished
11/5/2008  3:06:00 PM
Boundy Taylor. A Chasse to the right in the centre of the floor followed by 4 5 6 of a Reverse Weave works well. We see this one often. I always preceed that one with a Lunge to the Right across the LOD. followed by a Slip Pivot and turn to the centre.
As you suggested an Open Telemark in the centre going down the centre with the LOD is an exellent entry into limitless other figures.
Re: VIENNESE WALTZ
Posted by Polished
11/6/2008  2:21:00 PM
Before you take one step in a V. Waltz make sure you know where you should be facing to start the Natural Turn and the Reverse Turn. The Natural Turn should start facing Diag to Centre.
The Reverse Turn facing the LOD. This is throughout the dance and especially after a forward change.
Re: VIENNESE WALTZ
Posted by LondonBallroom
11/13/2013  3:49:00 AM
In case the previous response (from Polished) causes confusion step 1 of a natural turn is facing line of dance having turned 1/8 to the right between the previous step and step 1. Step 1 of a reverse turn is facing line of dance having turned 1/8 to the left between the previous step and step 1. This is according to the British Dance Council and is the technique also adopted by the Imperial Society of Teachers of Dancing (ISTD) and the United States ISTD.

http://www.goballroom.co.uk

Re: VIENNESE WALTZ
Posted by LondonBallroom
11/13/2013  3:50:00 AM
In case the previous response (from Polished) causes confusion the alignment of the last step (step 6) of the reverse turn is facing diagonally to wall. The authority for this is as for my previous message.

http://www.goballroom.co.uk

Re: VIENNESE WALTZ
Posted by Polished
11/6/2008  10:23:00 PM
What is not understood about the V, Waltz is. If I don`t start facing diag to centre I will over rotate the Natural Turn. The same with the Reverse. If I started the Reverse facing diag to centre I will over rotate.
Where it sometimes goes wrong is the alignment at the end of the Reverse after the Forward Change. Get that to finish diag to centre and you will be technicaly correct. Try not to do Reverse Turns on the short sides of the Ballroom. If you have to, try not to do heel turns instead of back side together.
Re: VIENNESE WALTZ
Posted by Polished
11/7/2008  1:10:00 PM
Where to start or finish a Reverse Turn is facing the LOD. If we decided to do another Reverse we are on the correct line to do so. To go from a Reverse to a Natural our Forward Change should finish diag to centre.
If we were to finish our Reverse and Forward Change facing diag to wall we would be cutting across the LOD. I`m sure other couples might have something to say about that about that.
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