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Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Foxy
1/26/2006  6:44:00 PM
Johnathan. The foxtrot is a good demonstration of the step swing drift principle,but if you turn the sound off and count the timing you will come up with qqs and not sqq. If you turn the sound of on the Hiltons vidio you will come up with sqq with the second quick a little slower than the first. I can only conclude that this is the way you dance it in the U.S.A. Thanks for a great website.
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Rha
1/26/2006  11:44:00 PM
Foxy,

The timing in those demonstrations are correct. They are beautifully done. I'm not from the US and those are the standard musical interpretations wherever in the world international standard is danced.

Rha
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Quickstep
1/27/2006  12:59:00 AM
Guys In competition you are not bound to a medal book. If i did after a Change of Direction I would come out not in phrase with the music. To counter that the competition dancer would use the timing S. S. (Q. LF). Q RF. (heel lead first of the Feather). And then Q. Q. as usuall. After a Natural Turn the same technique should be used. The question would be asked does it matter if I dance on 3412 instead of 1234. Years ago no. Today yes. Unless you want to go down the drain. Everything today is eight bar phrased. W F. Q. T. The same in Latin even the Jive. To continue the story . I went to a lecture by a very important gentleman who counted us into a Feather Step. He picked up the count 5678 we stepped off on our preperation step on 1 (Q). then on 2 (Q). then 3 (Q). then 4 (Q). That was our Feather Step. Which is as above. Why the book comes in a soft cover is so it can be bent If you read Alex Moore it was intended as a guide only and not to be used with a Parrot like mentality by the keen Amateur. >
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Rha
1/27/2006  1:58:00 AM
Quickstep,

I'm open to any musical interpretation. The point of my retort is not to be prescriptive about musicality. I think the aim of Jonathan in the videos is to demonstrate the classical slowfox timing/ musicality and he has achieved that (I presume that he would feel less than satisfied otherwise).

Foxy is subtly (slyly ) suggesting the contrary and I disagree with Foxy.

Rha
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Foxy
1/27/2006  3:27:00 AM
The slow of the international foxtrot is the swing of the whole foot from it's back position to it's forward position thats why you need to dance a preperation step. The feather step takes place inside the bar of music.If you staart wilth feet together you are deleting the first beat in the bar of music,This foxtrot is danced by an excellent dancer who is use to dancing Amercan style foxtrot,it is difficult to switch styles at a moments notice. This is not the timing used by most top international dancers.
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Rha
1/27/2006  4:35:00 AM
Foxy,

Are we talking about the same video, the slowfox clips under LEARN THE DANCES? I perplexed by your comments. He is dancing a prep step in the feather step demo, timing &SQQ.

Rha
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Foxy
1/27/2006  5:09:00 AM
Rha. You are correct,but I sstill say the timing is more like 1234 than &sqq ,but then who am I to say.
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Rha
1/27/2006  6:15:00 AM
Okay Foxy,

We must agree to disagree because I've had a re-look at the clip 15 times over since your last post, just to be sure, and I still like his rhythm. He does not snatch at the prep, clearly dancing it on the & count of the previous measure. He keeps it all quite rhythmically even, with the slight surge and drift into the 1st and 2nd quicks respectively. All these are trademarks of top flight, authenthic, advanced slowfox timing for me.

Rha
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Anonymous
1/27/2006  6:35:00 AM
actually the foot timing with respect to the body is wrong - it is over eager
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Dave
1/27/2006  7:02:00 AM
IT,s hard to demonstrate a feather without first warming up,neather can you get the same results when you dance a figure piece by piece. It can,t have the same fluid motion as when danced in a routine,the dancer is not able to dance light and shade. Please teach me to dance a feather step as demonstrated and I will be satisfied. Dave
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Dave Continued
1/27/2006  7:06:00 AM
Foxy . Thank you for bringing up the subject as Rha has introduced me to some new concept and a different way of lookin at the feather step.
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by jerryblu
1/27/2006  4:21:00 PM
I am going to beg to differ. That is NOT a prep step. That 1st Slow occurs on the 1st beat of the measure, not on the &. The count I heard on the video clip was SSqqSSqq. That 2nd SSqq demonstrates that the full step includes two slows. If it were a prep step then you would have one slow before launching into SqqSqq, not SSqqSSqq.

Unless you do a slow prep step before each feather????

I see folks dancing SSQQ Foxtrot all the time, shuffling around the floor. Altho Jonathan has explained to me that that is American Bronze, I just dont like it and I dont think of it as American Bronze. I think of it as Arthur Murray Bronze. I was taught SqqSqq from the start (American style), and when I graduated to Silver I learned to pass feet.

Jerry
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Anonymous
1/27/2006  5:09:00 PM
Jerry, no offense but dancing SQQ foxtrot with foot closure is downright silly. SSQQ foxtrot does a much better job of building the skills needed for SQQ continuinty than SQQ foot closure would.

As for the prep step issue, you are obviously watching the american clips while everyone else is watching the new international foxtrot clips.

Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by jerryblu
1/27/2006  8:20:00 PM
1. No offense at all.

2. You are entirely correct; I was watching the american clips. Somehow, I thought that the discussion was focussing on them, not the Int'l. Sorry.

3. Maybe silly, but Sqq with foot closure was how I started my learning. I didnt do natural turns for a long time, only reverse turns. I couldnt figure out why they were called reverse and why the right turn was natural.

Jerry
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Anonymous
1/27/2006  5:27:00 PM
"The slow of the international foxtrot is the swing of the whole foot from it's back position to it's forward position"

Actually no. It is formally defined to be from the time that the feet pass to the time that the feet pass.

Count frames in the video. I get something like 1: 19 2: 23 3: 20

If the video is NTSC rate, that's 1 measure of a 29 mpm foxtrot - but are the proportions correct?
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Quickstep
1/27/2006  6:00:00 PM
Foxy.I hope we are dicussing the International Foxtrot, I know absolutely nothing of the American Style. With your count of 1234 is the 1.2. the Preperation Step, Which will have you taking the 1st of the Feather on 34. If a preperation Step is taken on the &. The count becomes & with the & coming from 4 The count is & 1234. I hope that this is not to confusing. Our aim is to get a Prep step which allows us to take off on 1.2. on the first of the Feather and not 3.4. So we Prep step on 3.4. Which can also be called 7.8.The problem now is after a Change of Direction if we take the 3rd step as described we will be stepping out of phrase with the music as it is being played today.. Just my thoughts but years ago the music was not recorded as it is today. Today it is easy to pick up a count of 5678, if we use 78 as the Prep Step then we have 1.2. free for our Feather. Just to throw more fat on the fire. Look at the Tango. It is supposed to be 2/4 tempo. You are more likely to run into a 4/4 tempo.Just pick one step , a Four Step If you do it to 2/4 its fine. If you do a Four Step to 4/4 you will be out of time with the music. So they now do a Five Step instead. One of our leading teachers whilst in Europe acually asked one of the big orchestra leaders why 4/4. The answer was the buying public did not like 4/4. In fact they had to recall a disc and take out the 2/4 Tango and replace it with a 4/4. Just remembering that they are selling to others as well as ballroom dancers.. >
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Anonymous
1/27/2006  6:25:00 PM
It's so funny when dancers who've never played in a dance orchestra toss around time signatures ignorantly.

Music has many units. Always has, always will. Sometimes they are easier to hear than others, some are better at hearing them than others. Some dancers are bothered if their dancing doesn't fit the units, others are not.

Those that care either use the wrong amount of time per figure to force fit them (beginners) or use the right timings, and select a combination of figures that fit the music as a group, even if they may have a syncopated relationship to it at some instants - then dance in a way that makes the syncompation intentional and not unfortunate.
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Waltz123
1/27/2006  9:03:00 PM
The foxtrot is a good demonstration of the step swing drift principle,but if you turn the sound off and count the timing you will come up with qqs and not sqq.
Really? I almost see more of a QSQ.

The most likely cause of this is the fact that we filmed these clips without music. When there's no music playing, one tends to (or at least, *I* tended to) focus more on the movement than the timing. This was especially noticeable on a couple of the impetus clips that never made the cut, where we hovered way too long.

About half-way through day 1 of filming, we started noticing that there was a tendency (not just with us, but with everybody) for the narrater to follow rather than lead the dancers, so it was decided that it would be smarter to run a metronome in the background. This helped quite a bit. But Int'l Foxtrot was long over by then.

Now as to that silly generalization about dancers in the U.S.A... I should point out that my standard teacher, who was born, raised, and trained in the UK, was there to supervise our dancing on the day of the shoot. So any mistakes I may have made, or shortcomings in my dancing in general (and I'm sure there are plenty) are either the result of English training, or were simply missed on the day of the shoot. You decide.

Regards,
Jonathan
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Anonymous
1/27/2006  9:36:00 PM
"Now as to that silly generalization about dancers in the U.S.A... I should point out that my standard teacher, who was born, raised, and trained in the UK, was there to supervise our dancing on the day of the shoot."

The devil is in the details, details of a level so basic that they cannot productively be commented on when there isn't a month or two of time available to experment with them before the critical peformance. If you listen to the things that leading English coaches repeatedly try to change when brought over to teach top students, and then compare that to the conflicting beliefs of most non-English competitors, it's clear which tradition these clips illustrate. It's not that the English students are better, it's just that they get pushed on these things day in and day out for a decade or so before it sinks in, wheras the rest of us hear it only every few months, or worse, get a second or third hand version.
Re: Foxtrot as displayed on this site
Posted by Waltz123
1/27/2006  10:17:00 PM
Interesting. What makes you assume we spent only a month or two learning standard?
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