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Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by Serendipidy
1/23/2008  5:58:00 PM
We are discussing I think a Waltz and to duplicate the action we will be doing if we are doing the rise and the fall in the Modern Waltz against a door. I am in bare feet. You can be in high heels. I believe the angle would be the same in both cases but obviously not at the start.. Also over the three beats of music there will be from straight to bent knees twice. Thats why its a good idea to get against that door and go for it. Thats a lot of flexing of the knees, about 42 times if we are on the floor for 1.5 minutes
Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by anymouse
1/23/2008  8:08:00 PM
"We are discussing I think a Waltz and to duplicate the action we will be doing if we are doing the rise and the fall in the Modern Waltz against a door. I am in bare feet. You can be in high heels. I believe the angle would be the same in both cases but obviously not at the start."

Then you obviuosly haven't really thought about it. Who is dancing? How strong are they? How stiff is the toe box of the shoe? Are they demonstrating, competing, social dancing, practicing? What tempo is the music? How big is the room? Is the floor crowded? What do they wish to communicate?

"Also over the three beats of music there will be from straight to bent knees twice."

Or once, or three times, or none at all. It all depends on the proportions of movement appropriate for the dancing that is to be done. As an obvious example, many dancers, from beginner through world finalist, will (for differing reasons) at times quite correctly not achieve fully straight legs in the three-to-one transition. In other situations they may achieve them not only there, but between one and two, flex somewhat, and then straighten again at the peak of the rise. Many possibilities that are correct, even for the same figure, all depending on the situation.

The key skill is not to memorize answers (since those will be wrong as often as they are right) but to understand why the answer for a specific case is what it is, and why the answer for a slightly different case - even of the same figure - would have to be different.
Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by Serendipidy
1/24/2008  5:50:00 AM
None of the technique books are directed to Social Dancers. So I would say you can remove the crowded floor syndrome Or a Waltz that is not played at the correct tempo. Or how strong the dancer is. The dancer has to fit the bill it is not the other way around. Who can think of a better excercise for strengthening the feet and ankles than to do the suggested against a door. And does it or does it not come near to the action we use in the Modern Waltz
Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by phil.samways
1/24/2008  6:18:00 AM
"""At a lecture by Steven Hillier he said When I rise my body stays down. And when I lower my body stays up. """
I've heard this many times. Probably Stephen Hillier was the original source. He is an excellent teacher.
It would be great to ask Stephen Hillier to expand on the quote.
Next time you sit in a chair (which obviously uses some lowering action with the legs) check your posture. Everyone i watch slumps a little as they sit down. This doesn't look good. One excellent way to prevent it is to 'think' up as you sit down. It's a thought picture. And an excellent one. Not to be taken absolutely literally.
Similarly, when you rise, don't strain every sinew in your body to get your head onto the ceiling. This looks unpleasant too.
If only i could remember this when i'm competing.....
Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by anymouse
1/24/2008  7:10:00 AM
"None of the technique books are directed to Social Dancers."

Actually they are, in that they are specifically for the training of teachers who would in practice primarily work with social dance students, hopefully ones who are serious about learning. That was true when they were written, and it's still true today.

"So I would say you can remove the crowded floor syndrome"

Okay, so forget the infamously crowded first round at Blackpool and imagine we've somehow magically gotten a by to the later ones.

"Or a Waltz that is not played at the correct tempo."

The correct tempo varies with the purpose of the dance. 26 can be correct. 34 can be correct. The range for competition is narrower, but competition is not the only reason for dancing a waltz, even for competitors (shows for example are often a bit slower)

"Or how strong the dancer is."

Now you are showing the complete lack of thought you have put into the question. What ultimately determined the foot rise that can be used while maintaining security and balance? The strength of the dancer's feet. Even amongst "good" dancers this varies. And it also depends on what shoes you are wearing - a shoe with a stiffer toe box (perhaps because it is new and not broken in) will let you go higher.

That's the amount that can be used. The amount that should be used is an application-determined question, that depends on all those factors you insist on ignoring.

Or consider your outrageous suggestion that while men's shoes and ladies shoes might start you at a different ankle angle, you should end up at the same one. If you start at different angles, but end at the same, then that means that the ladies must use less foot rise than their partners, even at low overall amounts of foot rise. How much rise should be used probably varies for the forward or backward partner, but to state a rule which forces the lady to always use something 3 cm less foot rise change than the man is pure ignorance of the obvious fact that the appropriate amount to use will depend on many factors in the dancing.
Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by Serendipidy
1/24/2008  5:45:00 PM
The lady in a 3 inch heel is already higher than a man in a 1 inch heel before the heels leaves the floor. There is a maximum height that can be reached and the lady is already part of the way there. So what are we saying.
Its worth mentioning at this time on how to apply NFR ( no foot rise ) on step one for the lady in a Modern Waltz. This is how it was explained to me. The lady takes the first step behind on the LF in CBM and lowers the heel. The weight is kept over the LF and the RF is placed to the side. The position to aim for is to stay on the supporting leg longer with the navel pointing to diagnal to the centre. At this point the navel should not be pointing down the LOD. That is untill the man`s weight is passing. In other words the lady follows the man up after and not before. Why didn`t Alex explain this in his book instead of just a few words on page 21. I suppose he didn`t want to write the equivalent in size to Gone with the Wind. That must have been the reason.
Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by anymouse
1/24/2008  7:32:00 PM
"The lady in a 3 inch heel is already higher than a man in a 1 inch heel before the heels leaves the floor. There is a maximum height that can be reached and the lady is already part of the way there. So what are we saying."

Sure, there is a maximum height, based on the dancer's foot strength and the stiffness of their shoe.

But if the lady starts already higher than the man, and they both stop at the same height of the foot (neglecting the shoe) then her rise and fall is unlikely to be compatible with his. See the problem? In some cases it may be okay for her to use less change in foot rise, but in others she will probably have to use more than him.

The reality is that the height of the foot rise will be, within the range of what your body is capable of, determined by the needs of the situation in which you are dancing - including the requirement that it be something that your partner can create the corresponding match to.

Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by Serendipidy
1/26/2008  3:36:00 PM
Anonymous. Tell me where this is wrong if it is.
I am standing on a block of wood 3 inches high. My toes are touching the floor. You are on a block 1 inch high toes on the floor. You will rise a grand total of 6 inches. I to equall that will rise a grand total of how many inches ??
Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by anymouse
1/26/2008  8:04:00 PM
"Anonymous. Tell me where this is wrong if it is.
I am standing on a block of wood 3 inches high. My toes are touching the floor. You are on a block 1 inch high toes on the floor. You will rise a grand total of 6 inches. I to equall that will rise a grand total of how many inches ??"

Under your proposition, I would rise, 6 inches, to an altitude of 7 inches.

To literally match my rise and fall, you would have to rise 6 inches also, leaving you at an altitude of 9 inches.

See it doesn't add up - either we will rise different amounts, or we will end up at different ending altitudes, in which case you supposition that there is a proper ankle angle that is common to both man and lady is false. I think it's quite likely that we often will want to rise different amounts, but it's not always the person with the higher heel who should be doing less rise.

(9 inches of foot rise seems a bit extreme - are you a ballerina in pointe shoes or brand new unbroken in ballroom shoes that are stiff enough in the toe box to act like them? )
Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by Serendipidy
1/27/2008  2:52:00 PM
Dont agree with that. To reach 6 inches you will only need to rise 5 inches. You are already 1 inch of the floor before you start. I am 3 inches off the floor, to reach 5 inches I raise by 2 inches.
Actually we have a style of dancing called Australian New Vogue. In it with a side by side extended hold there are dozens of steps where both the man and the lady do what we call an Arial. This is standing over a spot the heel of both is raised as the other foot does the Arial and we lower still on the same spot. The ladies heel is never as high off the floor as the man`s is but she is still to her maximum in height.
Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by anymouse
1/27/2008  4:45:00 PM
"Dont agree with that. To reach 6 inches you will only need to rise 5 inches."

Fine, but you had said rise 6 inches.

"to reach 5 inches I raise by 2 inches."

So now we have risen vastly unequal amounts in the feet (5 inches for me, only 2 inches for you), in a way that makes you, as the lady, always have substantially less rise and fall there than me. In some situations that will work, in others it certainly won't.

Thus the fundamental problem: you cannot define either a correct altitude or a correct ankle angle, without taking the situation into account. Your attempt to ignore the situation was how we got into this argument in the first place.

You have to learn to pay attention to context.
Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by Serendipidy
1/28/2008  2:52:00 PM
Actually it is worth looking at this a bit further. You seem to have agreed that there is a difference in the height the heel is off the floor between the man and lady.
We have had in the past questions on what is an ideal height between the man and lady. Think on this.
If both myself and my partner are in our stocking feet 5` 8 inches. My shoe has a one inch heel which equalls 5` 9 inches. She in a three inch heel is 5. 11 inches total height. She is now three inches taller than me. Which dances are we handicapped in. Not the Tango we can bend our knees to an appropriate height and stay at that height. With the passing steps a Foxtrot might not be too bad. But the Waltz can present a problem when we close our feet and reach our full height with straight knees.. The Quickstep also. Unless we do more passing steps. Which we can in the Waltz also. Another factor comes in here . The lady can come down through the knees. In a competition the amount she is bending those knees could be hidden with the dress. No such luck wearing ordinary cloths. Cleverly arranged choreography is esentiall.
It is unfortunate but the lady cannot dance correctly with permanently bent knees and the man cannot dance correctly with permanently straight knees. My thoughts are the lady must come down to a lower heel size. There doesn`t seem to be any other choice. Any thoughts.
Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by phil.samways
1/29/2008  5:07:00 AM
I would only disagree on the tango comment. Also line figures can look unusual if the lady is taller than the man.
I would like a little more height difference and actually wear inserts in my shoes to give me an extra centimetre.
Can anyone tell me why men's standard ballroom shoes only have 1" heels? I realise it would reduce the extent of rise, but apart from this, it would be an advantage.
A lady can't really wear less than 2" heels
Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by cdroge
1/29/2008  5:18:00 AM
World champion Janet Gleave was taller than Richard in her dancing shoes?
Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by phil.samways
1/29/2008  8:28:00 AM
Hi cdroge
I wasn't aware of that. I will look up some videos of their dancing. I'll get some useful ideas from them ,I hope.
One of the difficulties for a tall lady softening a lot in tango (to be below the man, who presumably is dancing with softened knees) is this: where do the knees go??. They're sticking out all over the place. Sounds daft i know, but it's a practical problem
Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by cdroge
1/29/2008  11:41:00 AM
It is a problem for us,my wife's inside leg is 2in longer than mine we just can't lower as much as I would like in all dances. It's very important that she dances her full hight. We keep our heads as far apart as possible.
Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by Serendipidy
1/29/2008  7:14:00 PM
cdroge. Not all groups are for you. A expert coach who has most likely met this height problem before could tailor make your choreography to suit.
Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by anymouse
1/29/2008  6:55:00 AM
"Actually it is worth looking at this a bit further. You seem to have agreed that there is a difference in the height the heel is off the floor between the man and lady."

No, I have not taken a position on that, because the statement lacks the context necessary to form an opinion.

What I have pointed out is the fallacy of your one-answer-fits-all claim.

The right answer is specific to the specific situation. As long as you ignore that, your answers will always by definition be WRONG, because they can only possibly be right in the sense that a stopped clock is twice per day.
Re: Leg Rise vs. Foot Rise
Posted by danceintacoma
2/1/2008  6:01:00 PM
Leg rise also know as body rise is acomplished through the bending and straightening the knees typically done by women as the result of needing to use the foot for back steps, Foot rise is the rising onto the toe and them lowering to the heel typically done in figures by the Man.
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