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Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by Anonymous
11/20/2006  12:08:00 AM
Anonymous. You have got this crazy idea that unless we have two feet on the floor under our body we are not balanced. Why didn`t you write it like that days ago. So that you could be corrected.
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by Quickstep
11/20/2006  2:45:00 AM
The original Torque thread is lost and has been torqued into oblivion. I can find no use of the word torque in the technique book. I do find the word twist when it said don`t do it and that is just once.
To me torque means to turn one part of an object whilst keeping the rest still.
Twist is as a ball of wool or cotten is twisted which usually doesn`t happen to a more solid object.
Turn is to turn about our own centre or part of. In Latin it is possible to turn around our own centre or around a centre between two bodies in otherwords we go around each other. In Modern we never do this. We do go around a common centre because the two centres become one
So who was the bright spark who intruduced the words torque and twist into Standard ballroom dancing..
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by Anonymous
11/20/2006  6:59:00 AM
"I do find the word twist when it said don`t do it and that is just once."

I can't find the words "don't do it" or any negative recommendation in the book. What I do find is a recommendation to preferentially emphasize swing - but that is not in any way a prohibition of twist.

"In Latin it is possible to turn around our own centre or around a centre between two bodies in otherwords we go around each other. In Modern we never do this."

Your knowledge of modern is rather limited...

"We do go around a common centre because the two centres become one"

You are making the mistake of trying to combine the travel and the rotation into a single curved action. It doesn't work that way - you have travel, and you also have an indepent rotation superimposed on it. Unlike it the situation of an airplane flying through a slipstream, the rotation and travel of a dancer's body are not physically linked.
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by Quickstep
11/23/2006  1:16:00 AM
Anonymous. In the Samba we do go around our partners Circular Voltas man turns around the lady to the right, the lady goes leftwards. That is going around our partner which for obvious reasons can`t be done in Standard..
On a forward part of any turning figure it is more important to feel a forward swing rather than a conscious twist of the body on the first step. It should be remembered that the first step is the strong step. and from the swing of this step it should be possible to take a wide second step.
You try that if you twist on the first step. Don`t blame me . I didn`t write the book. How does that affect your Double Reverse Spin.
I was the first to to try to explain what a common centre is. I said that the mans centre is his shirt buttons. The lady the blouse buttons. When we join together we form a different centre which is a common centre.
To get to the main point we do not twist our spine ever. That was the issue. We keep our spine straight not twisted. Go and see Alex.
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by Anonymous
11/23/2006  7:53:00 AM
"In the Samba we do go around our partners Circular Voltas man turns around the lady to the right, the lady goes leftwards. That is going around our partner which for obvious reasons can`t be done in Standard.."

Try fleckerels...

"On a forward part of any turning figure it is more important to feel a forward swing rather than a conscious twist of the body on the first step."

Which is a recomendation to priortize swing, but in no way at all any sort of prohibition of twist!

"You try that if you twist on the first step. Don`t blame me ."

Do it all the time... works great, and it is precisely what the teacher asked for.

"How does that affect your Double Reverse Spin."

Already answered that for you... try rereading some of my previous answers to your repeated question.

"To get to the main point we do not twist our spine ever."

you won't be much of a dancer until you discover that we actually do, quite often...
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by Quickstep
11/23/2006  10:09:00 PM
Anonymous. I`m beginning to beleive that you may be turning into your step at the beginning and not at the end. Like turn at the end of one . Don`t turn at the beginning. If you read Alex Moore which you have read, what is he saying when he wrote that the step is forward without a twist of the body.
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by Anonymous
11/24/2006  7:35:00 PM
"Anonymous. I`m beginning to beleive that you may be turning into your step at the beginning and not at the end. Like turn at the end of one . Don`t turn at the beginning."

This is precisely where the twist comes from - you can't turn the topline until the end of one, but you do need to have a hint of turn somewhere at the beginning of one to set up the turn. That somewhere is in your legs and hips - a slight turn there, with none in the top, creates a small but important degress of twist in the body.

"If you read Alex Moore which you have read, what is he saying when he wrote that the step is forward without a twist of the body."

Don't change his words. He did not say "without" twist, he said tha that the swing was more important. And he is right. But that doesn't make the twist unimportant.
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by Serendipidy
3/31/2008  2:10:00 PM
This is an old one. I think anonymous was getting muddled up with CBM and calling it a twisting of the body..
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by anymouse
3/31/2008  3:15:00 PM
"This is an old one. I think anonymous was getting muddled up with CBM and calling it a twisting of the body.."

CBM would be twist free if the entire body (well, the trunk) all turned at the same time at the same rate.

That's not what real teachers will ultimately ask you to do. Instead, they will want the turn to manifest at different times and rates in different parts of the body core. Thus, twist.

But this is an advanced concept that's not going to be there in the first presentation to newer students.
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by Serendipidy
3/31/2008  11:35:00 PM
It is the International style of Standard and not Latin that is being discussed. If you can tell me exactly on a Feather Step for instance where there is a twist in the body, I take it that a twist is when the upper body is turned and the pelvis isn`t., or vice versa.
I believe Terence had something to say just recently about the Left shoulder leading has been amended to Left side leading.
It is easy to see how the mistake took place with some book readers.
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by phil.samways
4/1/2008  2:32:00 AM
I hope this post appears in the correct sequence.
Twist in foxtrot feather step....
I don't see how a good feather step can be performed without twist.
The feet must point along the line of movement , but we're dancing outside partner. There's only so much rotation of the pelvis that you can do before the feet must move out of this alignment. But the upper torso can rotate relative to the pelvis to make the upper line look more attractive. Hence twist, or 'torque'.(torque isn't strictly the same as twist - torque is a force, whereas twist is a position - but torque is a good word here because i feel i have to supply a force to keep my upper body in shape)
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by Serendipidy
4/1/2008  1:32:00 PM
Phil. We might add this straight from the technique book. It should be noted that the amount of turn is now measured from the position of the feet .
For me twisting of the spine is. With feet parallel turn your shoulders to the right and your hips to the left. A very uncomfortable position to be in.
An instance of how the amount of turn is assessed can be taken from the first three steps of a Natural Turn for the lady in the Waltz.After stepping back diagonally to the wall on the first step, her second step is placed to the side with the Right Toe pointing down LOD. ( the body is still facing digonal to the centre ). The amount of turn is given as three eighths of a turn, although the body has turned less. On the inside of the turn the feet are always placed with the toe pointing to the required position and there is no swivel of the foot.
Another page under CBM. Care must be taken not to turn the shoulders independently or an ugly dipping motion will result.
Under Alignment . There are three terms used in conection with alignment. They are facing, Backing and pointing. Facing and Backing are self explanatory. Pointing is used on side steps when the foot is pointing in a direction different from which the body is facing.
Forward turn to the Right. Step forward on the RF at the same time swing the Left hip and shoulder forward. Hip and Shoulder
I didn`t realise that untill just now the charts in Moore`s book are each square is 2 foot by 2 foot and every effort has been made to keep the steps to scale.
Back to the twisting of the spine. There is nowhere that I can see where it tells a student to twist the spine.
If I were to twist my body. Ask your partner does she feel she is being asked to go to two different directions at the same time. I think she will say yes. Good luck
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by anymouse
4/1/2008  3:04:00 PM
"For me twisting of the spine is. With feet parallel turn your shoulders to the right and your hips to the left. A very uncomfortable position to be in."

Sure, if you do it to that extreme. But this is indeed what happens TO A MUCH SMALLER DEGREE in fully skilled ballroom dancing.

"Another page under CBM. Care must be taken not to turn the shoulders independently or an ugly dipping motion will result."

Yes, but this is still not a blanket prohibition against body twist, instead it is a warning about using a counterproductive twist in a situation where something very different is called for.

I find the most notable examples of body twist occur in situations where you turn your hips before your upper body - which is basically the opposite of what your citation warns against.

"Back to the twisting of the spine. There is nowhere that I can see where it tells a student to twist the spine."

Nor is there any blanket prohibition against it. Nor, quite obviously, is the book description anywhere close to completely capturing what advanced dancers actually do.

With the noted exception of the body twist necessary to achieve a clean promenade position, twist in the body is a fairly advanced topic which shouldn't really be raised with beginners - because as the book points out, other things are far more important.

"If I were to twist my body. Ask your partner does she feel she is being asked to go to two different directions at the same time. I think she will say yes."

If I do it right, she will match me by moving different parts of her body in different BUT COMPATIBLE ways, as necessary to achieve the desired result. But if you do it wrong, you will be asking her to do two CONFLICTING things with her body.

However this is an advanced concept that's not going to come up in most lessons and especially not most written descriptions. It's a lot easier to get it wrong than to get it right, so most teacher comments on the subject of twist are going to come down to "don't do it" - the actual encouragement to do the proper kind of twist will come later, and is as likely to be communicated by feel or by allusion as to be stated literally "twist your body this way".
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by Serendipidy
4/1/2008  4:03:00 PM
Anonymous. I meant to put this in before. If you put a DVD on of one of our Super Stars Dancing. Imagine they are wearing one of those Posture Frames. This will make you look at the action of the side and shoulders instead of being distracted by all the other things going on.You know how a magician moves one hand and we cant help following that hand with our eyes. The same happens when watching dancing. Keep your eyes on that imagined frame and tell me that you can see a twist in the spine.
Keep twisting long enough and you will finish with back trouble if you aren`t already.
I would imagine that it is on a Feather Step where you think it is necessary to twist the spine. I don`t think it would be on the turn in the Waltz because we all know that we complete the step before we turn. In the Tango some might believe there is a twisting of the spine because of the right side lead. But there isn`t if the feet are off set as they are supposed to be before we step.
If you can think of the centre of your body is your spine. It is also the centre of your balance. It is not necessary to alter the shape of it . Why would I . It`s my driving force which is driven to my front. That`s my spine.
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by anymouse
4/2/2008  8:56:00 AM
"Keep your eyes on that imagined frame and tell me that you can see a twist in the spine."

How can you see a twist, which is something that would have to happen BETWEEN two different body parts, when you concentrate your attention on one part of the body alone????

You wouldn't see twist unless you compared the rotational alignment of two different body parts separated by some significant distance up and down the spine.

And even then you probably wouldn't see it, because outside of extremely obvious situations like promenade it is fairly slight. However, if you danced with someone of sufficient skill that they incorporate this, you'd probably FEEL how they use each part of their body in a different BUT COMPATIBLE way, to create the desired whole much more effectively than the beginner's rigid body usage can.

Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by Serendipidy
4/2/2008  2:47:00 PM
Anonymous.On the forward part of any turning figure it is much more important to feel a forward swing than a concious TWIST OF THE BODY..
CBMP. Is the position attained when either foot is placed across the front or the back of the body WITHOUT THE BODY TURNING.
Can anything be more clearer than that.
You job is to now tell us exactly where or who told you to twist your body.I think the only time the word Twist is used is describing a Tango Twist Turn. Incidently in which the spine stays aligned over the centre of the body.
Finally I will quote Steven Hillier who said that below the hips and to the base of the pelvis imagine we have three blocks of wood each balanced and square to each other. We must try to keep those blocks of wood aligned one over the other at all times. Lecture given in Melbourne many years ago. It hasn`t altered since.
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by phil.samways
4/3/2008  5:42:00 AM
Hi Serendipity
When you wrote:
"On the forward part of any turning figure it is much more important to feel a forward swing than a concious TWIST OF THE BODY..
CBMP. Is the position attained when either foot is placed across the front or the back of the body WITHOUT THE BODY TURNING. ""
I agree that the concept of swing is important. But it leads to an element of twist. The original discussion about twist is whether there is any.
On CBMP - i would say there would often be a twist here - i.e. upper shoulder line not exactly the same as the pelvis alignment. Thee alignment doesn't CHANGE while the CBMP step is taken (hence no "turning")
I believe a 'twist' is essential in the feather step and also step 4 (man's left foot back, taken OP)in a weave from promenade in foxtrot (to give another example).
I will repeat what i said earlier. If the feet must stay aligned (to say the 12 o'clock position) you can only turn your pelvis so much (obviously varies, but in my case i can do about 1.30 - more if i'm motionless but not 'in action') yet my frame alignment might be 2.00 or even 2.30. My partner can follow this (she's good!)
NOW, if i'm wrong on this, somebody PLEASE tell me.
I will get out my Gozzoli DVD again. I'm sure he does the "3 fallaways with a turn to the right" with lots of 'twist' He'd call it 'shaping' probably (what's that in Italian?)
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by phil.samways
4/3/2008  5:56:00 AM
Hi again
Just a little follow-up on my previous post.
Have a look at this:
youtube.com/watch?v=sVYskhuGT0g&feature=related

(you'll need to put the w...w...w in front)
Couple no 29 doing a back weave down the floor. Lovely shaping, which does involve a 'twist'
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by Serendipidy
4/3/2008  1:49:00 PM
Phil. I had no luck finding the one you mentioned. If you Google Marcus Hilton on youtube and find Basic Foxtrot. They do the routine three times if you stay with it. In the routine they do three different Weaves. One on bar 11 and 27 plus 29. You will notice that the routine is a eight bar phrased routine finishing on the fourth phrasing which = 32.
If you look at his shoulders you will see they are aligned over the hips at all times. Keep an eye on his right side. At the very end on the Throwaway it might be misinterpreted as a twist in the spine but I am confidant that what you see is Sway and not a twist.
If you have developed a twist and you analise it your shoulders or your hips have turned in an opposite direction to each other. Even a simple thing like a Lockstep, if the whole of the side doesn`t go with the left foot you would have a twist in your spine. If your hip turned and your shoulder didn`t, your hip would be pointing down the LOD and your shoulder would be pointing diag to centre. Your RF should be stepping Diag to wall O/S partner in accordance with the correct technique for a Lock Step in the Quickstep. And to put the lid on it. I asked a person who is currently in the top thirty in the world
Do we twist the spine . Here answer was definitely no. You drive the spine in the direction you are travelling.
Why would anybody want to do it any other way.
Trying to make sense out of this. I think the problem lies in that in the Foxtrot and in particular the Quickstep we are travelling sideways for so much of the dance . While`st you are with Marcus you might take a look at his Waltz also.
I am endevouring to copy the Hilton Basic Foxtrot ( which is far from basic). Sometimes wearing a Posture Frame. I`m OK at the moment up to the 24th bar. Which gets practiced over and over going through every little detail.
Back to the spine. With the dancer can you see that that spine stays between the shoulder and the hips. Sway yes twisting no.If you can find any Technique book or DVD or from a lecture where a twisting of the spine is mentioned or recomended then tell me who or where.
You might also look at the Foxtrot Feather Step on this site and look for any of the above suggested. You might be able to tell me exactly where you think a twist takes place. Look also at the Reverse Turn and the Three Step. Does yours look like that. It`s supposed to.
Re: To Torque or not to Torque
Posted by anymouse
4/3/2008  2:47:00 PM
"If you look at his shoulders you will see they are aligned over the hips at all times."

As I said before, you may not be able to see it or understand what you are seeing, but if you were to try dancing with a dancer of this level - which you clearly never have - you would feel all sorts of things going on in their body that break your beginner-level assumptions of how dancing is supposed to work.

"If you have developed a twist and you analise it your shoulders or your hips have turned in an opposite direction to each other."

Or turned DIFFERENT AMOUNTS in the SAME direction. Even temporarily different, caused by one part turning before another, still constitutes a twist.

"I asked a person who is currently in the top thirty in the world
Do we twist the spine . Here answer was definitely no."

You cannot take such answers too literally. You have to spend time studying with a person, feel what it's like to dance with them, and over the course of time you will start to develop a bit of udnerstanding of what they actually do - WHICH OFTEN CONFLICTS WITH WHAT THEY SAY THEY ARE DOING. Not necessarily because they are unknowledgeable, but often because they simply haven't thought about all meanings of the question. For example, your teacher's answer is literally false because it is inconsistent with the obvious reality of body twist in promenade position.

Also, 30th in the world is not a very good career stage for your authority teacher to be at - they are too caught up in competing to have true mastery as teachers yet. Try taking some in person lessons and getting a feel for what it's like to dance with the people who judge Blackpool. What you will learn from this can never be expressed in words.

"Why would anybody want to do it any other way."

Because it is ultimately necessary to use the various parts of the body in harmony rather than in strict unison - you cannot treat your torso as a rigid plank and expect to dance with true ease. But yes, we do start beginners off that way, and restrict them to that until they are ready for more.

Your comments strongly hint that your teachers do not feel that you personally are ready to add more advanced elements of technique.
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