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If my maths are ok
Posted by Anna
11/20/2006  5:47:00 AM
Modern Waltz. 28 bars a minute. will equall 1 second each beat. As there are six half beats. in one bar of music. And six moves. Do we count it this way. 1/2 sec. to step. 1/2 sec to draw the foot up and turn. 1/2 to put the foot to the side. 1/2 sec to draw the feet together.Now I have 1 second or 2 1/2's to rise and fall. Can it be any other way and still comply with the technique book
Re: If my maths are ok
Posted by phil.samways
11/20/2006  6:24:00 AM
Hi Anna
At 30 bars per minute and 3 beats to the bar, you have 90 beats per minute, so each beat is only 2/3 second. It'll be very s;lightly longer of course at 28 Bars per minute.
The rest of your question is more complex. I think you have it pretty well correct, though many would argue with some of the details.
For example, the technique book says "lower end of 3" (this would be for 1-2-3 natural turn, for example)without saying exactly when this is. Perhaps it's as well it's not too tightly specified. Most would lower on 3&. But again, the technique book only refers to foot lowering and not body lowering (am i right on this?)
Re: If my maths are ok
Posted by Anonymous
11/20/2006  6:42:00 AM
"For example, the technique book says "lower end of 3" (this would be for 1-2-3 natural turn, for example)without saying exactly when this is."

That is lower at the end of STEP three, not the end of BEAT three.

Even if you make the assumption that each step takes exactly one beat, there is absolutely zero evidence to suggest that beats align with steps. In fact, there is a lot of evidence to suggest that steps begin and end somewhere around halfway through each beat - that would put the weight change which is approximately the midway action of each step on the downbeat, and would have us counting steps in terms of beats as and-one, and-two, and-three.
Re: If my maths are ok
Posted by phil.samways
11/21/2006  9:55:00 AM
In another thread somewhere, we agreed that the technique book doesn't define the relationship between steps and beats.
So i dance the way virtually all dancers do - plant my right foot (as in right foot forward at the 'start' of waltz natural turn)on beat 1. By the technique book this is halfway through step 1, but that doesn't matter. I'm not going to drive myself (and my partner)bananas by trying to step on beat 1&. The judges wouldn't like it either
Re: If my maths are ok
Posted by Anna
11/21/2006  3:57:00 PM
Anonymous.There is an and at the end of three. You have put an and count at the beginning of one which belongs with the bar of music just gone.
Just something alse to argue about. There are teachers who very sucessfull teach at a very high level, who count the Foxtrot in threes, thats steps. Have Fun.
Re: If my maths are ok
Posted by Anonymous
11/21/2006  9:12:00 PM
"Anonymous.There is an and at the end of three."

There is an "and" at the end of beat three, but there is not one at the end of step three - because that part of the music belongs to the following step one.

"You have put an and count at the beginning of one which belongs with the bar of music just gone."

You need to read more carefully. I put the and count after beat three at the begining of STEP 1. If you wish step 1 to land squarely on beat 1, then the part of step 1 that takes place before the foot lands (which is about half of the step!) must take place before beat one... which is to say, during the later portion of beat three.

The fundamental source of confusion is a misunderstanding of what a "STEP" is in the language of ballroom. In the language of ballroom technique, a "STEP" is the action from one foot passing to the next foot passing (or half closure in the case of a closing step). It is not the action from one landing to the next!

Now you can of course invent your own language for talking to your friends and use the words any way you want. But if you are going to do that, you have to translate all recommendations written in terms of the standardized langauge of ballroom technique into the langauge of Anna - and that means moving the numbers around, since Anna steps are halfway offset from Alex Moore steps.

Just something alse to argue about. There are teachers who very sucessfull teach at a very high level, who count the Foxtrot in threes, thats steps. Have Fun.
Re: If my maths are ok
Posted by Anonymous
11/21/2006  9:13:00 PM
"Just something alse to argue about. There are teachers who very sucessfull teach at a very high level, who count the Foxtrot in threes, thats steps. Have Fun."

Indeed - that is precisely how the figures are written. And those are obviously not beats for the foxtrot. Nor are the beats for the waltz, evne though there happen to be three steps and also three beats, they don't match. Just look at the chasse - it has four actions plus one followup - but I don't recall any waltz with four unequal beats in a measure!
Re: If my maths are ok
Posted by phil.samways
11/22/2006  4:02:00 AM
Hi anonymous
i don't know whether there are 2 anonymii or 1.
Anyway, i think you're trying to confuse us.
Anna's steps will not be halfway offset from Alex Moore's steps because Alex Moore never specified when the steps would take place relative to the music. You've agreed to this before.
""""Just look at the chasse - it has four actions plus one followup - but I don't recall any waltz with four unequal beats in a measure!"""""
What do you mean?? A chassis can be danced 1,&,2,3 or 1,2,&3 or possibly even 1,2,3,& - all of these are 4 actions in 3 beats. Everyone does syncopated steps. What does your comment mean?
Re: If my maths are ok
Posted by Anonymous
11/24/2006  9:37:00 PM
"""""Just look at the chasse - it has four actions plus one followup - but I don't recall any waltz with four unequal beats in a measure!"""""
What do you mean?? A chassis can be danced 1,&,2,3 or 1,2,&3 or possibly even 1,2,3,& - all of these are 4 actions in 3 beats. Everyone does syncopated steps. What does your comment mean?"

The rise and fall is specified in terms of the FOUR STEPS, not in terms of the THREE BEATS. Obviously in that case shows that beats and steps are not the same thing.

Nor are they the same thing in a natural turn - you just get confused because their are three of each and they may take the same amount of time - but the DO NOT LINE UP. Instead, the beats land roughly in the middle of the steps, maybe a little earlier - but steps do not being anywhere near on the beat, because there is quite a bit that needs to happen between the beginning of a step and when it lands.
Re: If my maths are ok
Posted by Anna
11/25/2006  12:13:00 AM
Anonymous. So beat one. Then foot lands, now let me see is it in between that and the second beat. We are not even considering the step before which would have its own problems. Are you saying we have step and then the musical beat of one. Or are you saying that the music beats one and sometime after we step one. Do you realise how ridiculace this sounds looks and is . Why would anybody try to seperate the steps from the beats, unless they aren't capable of hearing the beats. The count remains 1 and 2 and 3 and. The and cannot come from the beat which has not struck ,it is always part of the beat that is still ringing.

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