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Which is the highest
Posted by quickstep
1/16/2007  3:02:00 AM
Heres a good one. In between the Waltz and the Foxtrot. Which if any is higher than the other at its highest point. Look before you leap. remember the description from the technique book. Which is commence to rise at the end of step one.. Continue to rise on two and three. Foxtrot. Rise at the end of one. Up on two and three. If the last sentence is analized the highest point is imediently after one on two, no further rise. Whereas the highest point in Waltz is on three which has nothing to do with how high we should be, thats just how we get there. Look at the DVD`s and keep an eye on those heels.
Re: Which is the highest
Posted by phil.samways
1/16/2007  5:33:00 AM
I always understood that the waltz has the 'highest rise' since the nature of the waltz is the undulating movement. Foxtrot is a more flowy dance, and rise isn't so much, even though it may start earlier. Sinkinson dances his foxtrot with a lot less rise than his waltz. That's good enough for me
Re: Which is the highest
Posted by Anonymous
1/16/2007  7:22:00 AM
"Heres a good one. In between the Waltz and the Foxtrot. Which if any is higher than the other at its highest point. Look before you leap. remember the description from the technique book. Which is commence to rise at the end of step one.. Continue to rise on two and three. Foxtrot. Rise at the end of one. Up on two and three. If the last sentence is analized the highest point is imediently after one on two, no further rise."

WRONG.

In reality the highest point in foxtrot is at the formal end of step two, which is to say when the feet pass to begin step three.

Don't take my word for it, open your eyes and LOOK.

And you will soon realize it would not work any other way.

The textbook does not mention this, because it is concerned with the RISING ACTION, not with the ALTITUDE of the body which includes additional factors.
Re: Which is the highest
Posted by quickstep
1/16/2007  3:05:00 PM
I think you will find that you still have your heel on the floor after step one. Which is not according to the correct technique. You might also look at steps four and five on a Reverse Turn. Do it according to the book and what do you have. Are you on two toes with your weight equally divided at that point. Is that what the book says or not.
Re: Which is the highest
Posted by Anonymous
1/16/2007  3:05:00 PM
"I think you will find that you still have your heel on the floor after step one. Which is not according to the correct technique."

Dancing as lady I would indeed, as is required.

Dancing as man I would not, as is required.

But those are both entirely beside the point.

Try putting down the book and watching some excellent dancers. Or try reading Scrivener, who was ready to call a spade a spade and point out the simple fact that the heighest altitude is achieved at the end of step 2/beginning of step 3 - NOT the end of step 1 as an oversimplified reading of Moore leads you to mistakenly conclude.
Re: Which is the highest
Posted by latindiva
1/17/2007  1:37:00 AM
the highest point is in the waltz, because in the foxtrot you are doing a rise but they tell you with "no foot rise", as you don't rise your feet like you do in the waltz, and in foxtrot you don't make a maximum rise like the waltz. So i guess this doesn't need to complicate things no?
Re: Which is the highest
Posted by Anonymous
1/17/2007  6:53:00 AM
Yes, waltz is higher than foxtrot.

However, all of waltz, foxtrot, and quickstep reach their own highest height at about the same point, as a result of the body arriving or passing directly over a nearly straight leg. This is simple and automatic geometry, which the Moore/ISTD books do not concern themselves with - instead, they speak of the rising action, which is indeed over after step one for foxtrot.

(Of course a nearly straight leg does not mean absolutely straight - the knee must still be soft and not be locked.).
Re: Which is the highest
Posted by quickstep
1/17/2007  3:24:00 PM
So the height is the same in the four swing dances . The only difference is the way we get there. I think you will find except for the stretch in the body there is no appreciable difference in the height that the heel is off he floor.
Re: Which is the highest
Posted by Anonymous
1/17/2007  3:55:00 PM
"So the height is the same in the four swing dances ."

Abosolutely NOT!

Foxtrot is much lower than waltz!

"The only difference is the way we get there."

That is also different.

"I think you will find except for the stretch in the body there is no appreciable difference in the height that the heel is off he floor."

If you allow yourself to get ahead of the music in foxtrot, you may have to rise to a waltz like altitude to control yourself, but if you dance it PROPERLY as demonstrated by the masters, your maximum rise will be moderate.

Contrast in waltz, you will at times be over a fairly straight leg with a lot of foot rise. Wheras in foxtrot, your heel would only be moderately off the floor while your are directly over it. It is very high off the floor only at times when the body is not over it, in other words when the height of the heel does not contribute to the altitude of the body.

Characteristic waltz figures require dramatic rise which absorbs almost all of the motion energy in order to work. Characteristic foxtrot figures on the other hand would be ENTIRELY RUINED if danced risen to waltz height. Not to mention, the lady's footwork would be impossible if her parnter was rising to a waltz-like altitude!
Re: Which is the highest
Posted by quickstep
1/17/2007  4:08:00 PM
I`m looking at Hilton and partners feet in Waltz and Foxtrot. You know who they are. What do I see.
It is a very beginnerish mistake to think that in passing steps there is any diference in the height of the heel from the floor. Discusion finished.
Re: Which is the highest
Posted by Anonymous
1/17/2007  5:19:00 PM
"I`m looking at Hilton and partners feet in Waltz and Foxtrot. You know who they are. What do I see.
It is a very beginnerish mistake to think that in passing steps there is any diference in the height of the heel from the floor. Discusion finished."

If you mean that a foxtrot figure imported into waltz is not that different than when it is danced in foxtrot, I would agree.

But if you compare *characteristic* foxtrot figures to *characteristic* waltz figures, the altitude of the rise is VERY DIFFERENT.
Re: Which is the highest
Posted by Xtal
1/20/2007  4:30:00 PM
As I understand it, and perhaps I am wrong, but the footwork for both dances as a man is the same, heel toe, toe, toe heel. However, I was taught that in order to keep the characteristics of the dance, foxtrot has a lower rise and waltz higher. My understanding is that the rise in waltz is to help not only with the patterns but also to reflect true waltz music. The way that I was taught to keep foxtrot rise lower is by pitching the knee forward so that you have the same amount of foot rise but as you would in the waltz but not the same amount of overall rise.

To my understanding, this is done because in foxtrot your overall goal is to have equal step size for your slows and quicks. In order to show a difference between the two dances (besides just timing)you have to apply the proper styling and characteristics as well (which includes rise and sway).

I was also taught that the reason this works is because your lines are mostly created from the leg you are leaving behind, and are created mostly on your first and third steps, therefore the pitching of the knee shouldn't affect any leg lines that are being created.

Now, I would like to conclude this by saying I've only been dancing (instructing) for a year, so if someone is POSITIVE that this is wrong, I would love to know.. however if you are just making and educated guess as I am (from manuals, videos, etc.), then I would love to hear your position on it, but please don't claim it as fact. Thanks!
Re: Which is the highest
Posted by Anonymous
1/20/2007  4:50:00 PM
Xtal, you do have some of the right ideas.

Except that there is most definitely less actual foot rise of the standing foot in characeristic foxtrot figures than in characteristic waltz figures.

In foxtrot, you would usually only accomplish a lot of foot "rise" on a foot that was actually your moving foot rather than your standing foot - you only get that high articulation of the foot after you have left it behind. This is not the same thing as bending your knee of your standing leg forward so that you can have more foot rise in the standing foot (I've seen half trained students make that mistake, and a mistake it most certainly is!)

The one time in foxtrot where you would come closer to waltz rise and waltz dynamics is where you use the rise to almost completely reverse direction - for example, a curved feather or a curved three step, where you do use a lot of rise to absorb and re-direct the movement, much as in waltz. And notice that on these figures, the lady does have footrise on her second step, whereas should would not have any foot rise on that step in an ordinary linear feather or three.
Re: Which is the highest
Posted by quickstep
1/21/2007  3:19:00 AM
Xtai. Go to the Learn the Dances section Choose Foxrot Feather Step and study.What do you think you see. If you have any tapes of an IDSF final , when they do the solo, study again having no pre-conceived ideas in your mind of how it is done. Believe your own eyes. You are right about the rear foot. It is the most seen for both the man and lady.Show a good leg line there which again if you know what to look for is right before your eyes.
One last thing. On a Feather Step the size of the steps cannot be the same. With CBMP on the third step it becomes a foot placement as does any Feather Finish.
About the height that the heel is from the floor in the Waltz and the Foxtrot. Again look in slow motion. What do you see from our better dancers. Is there a difference on the moving steps. That is steps where the feet pass.
Re: Which is the highest
Posted by Anonymous
1/21/2007  7:56:00 AM
"On a Feather Step the size of the steps cannot be the same. With CBMP on the third step it becomes a foot placement as does any Feather Finish."

Quickstep,

If you could ever bring yourself to let go of your own MISCONCEPTIONS and follow you OWN ADVICE and actually LOOK at video...

You would discover that in fact the third step is essentially the SAME SIZE as the second.

This is possible because the third step is created not so much by the swing of hte leg across the body (which can be only moderate) but by the way in which the top dancers keep their entire body moving. The step relative to the body is moderate, but the step across the floor is HUGE, because it is the some of a moderate leg swing plus a quite full and continous movement of the entire body.

Beginners like you of course lack the ability to sustain body movement in that manner.
Re: Which is the highest
Posted by Xtal
1/21/2007  8:50:00 PM
Anonymous,

Thank you for your advice and knowledge, I will definitely take that into consideration. My training is definitely lacking in the sense that I don't get much outside training (i.e. coaches etc.), the stuff that I know, I only "know" because of studying tapes and manuals, the things my dance partner has taught me, and just common sense and what seems to work. My dance partner and I are the most advanced instructors at our studio and have only been teaching for a year to a year and a half. I do think we are doing well for ourselves though (considering all things. lol).

Quickstep,
Please understand that my already conceived notion was something that I had already taken the time to sit and watch videos and study manuals, etc. for. BUT, I am not opposed to doing it again in chance that I've missed something.

Anyway, thank you both. If you have any more info you would like to share, I would appreciate it!
Re: Which is the highest
Posted by quickstep
1/22/2007  3:08:00 AM
Haven`t you ever been told that we don`t always take the same size step Take a big step and you will drag the lady into their next step. So lets go through a Feather Step. On the third step we have CBMP. We are on the outside of the lady on her right hip and she on ours. If we do anything other than a foot placement there she will have difficulty on her Heel Turn which for her the first step needs to be a big step. If we where to take a big step there ourselves. What does the lady do. Are you going to ask her to take a bigger step still. I seem to remember you giving a description of a Back Lock as a bowman drawing his bow. That`s good. Now if this is a Feather step and you are going forward the same applies except the right foot is placed in CBMP. To take a big step you will most certainly OPEN YOUR STANCE, and as we all know that`s not on is it. Just recently said on tape. If we twist our spine our shoulders will have difficulty following our body. I think this applies here also. From the way you wtite and have written I think you believe that the first one around the floor is the winner. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Re: Which is the highest
Posted by Anonymous
1/22/2007  6:48:00 AM
"So lets go through a Feather Step. On the third step we have CBMP. We are on the outside of the lady on her right hip and she on ours. If we do anything other than a foot placement there she will have difficulty on her Heel Turn which for her the first step needs to be a big step. If we where to take a big step there ourselves. What does the lady do."


Quickstep, once more we must review this, because you SIMPLY ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION when you read.

The step is not big because the man takes a big step. Instead, it is big because, during the time when he takes a merely moderate swing of his leg (and she takes a merely moderate swing of her leg) both bodies continue to move a large distance over the floor. This moderate leg swing, added onto a large body travel, creates a large step.

If both partners do not yet have the strenght and skill to sustain movement of the body throughout the step, then yes of course it will need to be small. And the dancing will also look halting and unpleasant. Remember the second step moves, and the next first step will move. To have the third step not continue movement would break the flow! But until both dancers develop the skill to sustain movement, that is what will happen.

"To take a big step you will most certainly OPEN YOUR STANCE,"

Only if you make the mistake of trying to do it by swining your leg. You can't go big by swinging your leg on and outside partner step, because there isn't room to swing it without opening you stance. So instead, you must allow your body to move throughout the step, carrying your leg along. And during this, your leg will make a moderate swing that adds to your body movement, not a large one.

It's as if you were standing on an airport people mover and took a small step. As far as the partnership is concerned it is a small step. But as far as anyone standing still in the room is concerned, it's a big step that covered a lot of ground!



Are you going to ask her to take a bigger step still. I seem to remember you giving a description of a Back Lock as a bowman drawing his bow. That`s good. Now if this is a Feather step and you are going forward the same applies except the right foot is placed in CBMP. To take a big step you will most certainly OPEN YOUR STANCE, and as we all know that`s not on is it. Just recently said on tape. If we twist our spine our shoulders will have difficulty following our body. I think this applies here also. From the way you wtite and have written I think you believe that the first one around the floor is the winner. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Re: Which is the highest
Posted by quickstep
1/22/2007  1:06:00 PM
Paragraph three and six appear to contradict each other don`t you think.
Re: Which is the highest
Posted by Anonymous
1/22/2007  7:54:00 PM
"Paragraph three and six appear to contradict each other don`t you think."

Only to someone who has not yet figured out that when the body is moving substantially across the floor, then a small step (relative to the body) can be a big step (relative to the floor)
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