"Not in a competition, but we can do a Rumba to some tunes that are actually Foxtrots. It shouldn t be difficult even for a beginner to pick out the beats and link the 4 with the 1. Personally i would never count in slows and quicks. It is fine for the absolute basics. But after that it wont work."
Sure, you can force anything to work, but characteristic american rumba music does not really suggest the 4-1 timing of international rumba. Instead, it suggests the half-measure aligned timing of american rumba.
Wheras foxtrot does having something aking to the 4-1 holdover...
"Finally. If you were into a Sequence Rumbas, there are many of them, The Queen of Hearts is one. They all start LF forward on beat one."
Not officially they don't. The scripts and competitions are all danced using the normal international timing of 2,3,4-1. When danced socially however they are almost universally danced 1,2,3-4. Part of the reason is the music used for sequence dancing. This usually has a very definite 'dance on 1' feel. The same applies to sequence cha cha too, danced 1,2,3&4, which incidentally is the timing used on the original "Wheels" played by Joe Loss 50 years ago.
The rumba count issue is one of the reasons that I switched to International Latin. Am. Rhythm has so many different syllabus patterns by different schools, plus different counts that each school chooses to invent. With Int. Rumba, I do a starter step with my right foot on 8, hold on 1 and step forward or break on 2 with my left foot. I have danced Int. Rumba to American tempo, but it is not the same and you can't do much hip work with faster music.
The so called American Smooth and Rhythm has been somewhat of a curse for serious dancers and having to navigate all the different variations of beats and watered down versions of International dance movements. International has solid information, syllubus patterns, reference manuals, the best teachers, and consistant counts and music.
I absolutely agree with everything you said. As i put once before. Just about all the top dancers start in a static position as if they have done a Rumba Walk on the LF. They pick up the count and step forward on the RF on the beat of one and then a Front Basic as normal with the LF. Alen Fletcher on his tape says every step is either a forward or backward walk. Wally Laird once said to a lady pupil. If i see a gap between your thighs once more i will place my hand in that gap. More on the gap from Katarina on Slavik` s DVD. You know how some of us are told at the start to have our RF to the side and roll over on one. That` s out. Wally would have seen to that. It` s interesting that you are starting on the eighth beat which means you are counting at the beginning 5 6 7 8 which is correct and makes you in phrase with the music. You must have a well informed teacher. In the Cha Cha Donnie Burns sets up with the RF behind the LF and starts with a Lock ( Latin Cross) on the RF 4 and 1. No rolling onto the RF there. Best of luck.
"The so called American Smooth and Rhythm has been somewhat of a curse for serious dancers and having to navigate all the different variations of beats and watered down versions of International dance movements. International has solid information, syllubus patterns, reference manuals, the best teachers, and consistant counts and music."
Nobody said you had to pick more than one of the many choices.
And nobody said you had to water it down... though you will dance against that a lot in the american styles, and loose to it unless you can match the showmanship of those who do.
Lady in Red is my favorite Rumba. It really captures the attitude of Rumba, that our teachers told us. The I am so lucky to be dancing with this wonderful lady attitude. Costa Magica ballroom group sang it in Italian and it was really romantic in Italian.
'Counting' quicks and slows makes no sense. What is 'quick' and what is 'slow'? MAYBE it is a relationship to two movements, but dance isn't based on that - it's based on a relationship to music and movement. What beat and what movement happens is real - 'quick quick slow' is relative to - whatever - and that's why most beginners see ance as a 'basic step' of quicks and slows, and most dancers past the beginner stage see technique related to quarterbeats of music as the way to 'define' movement. That's why beginners can always seem to 'count' the same QQSS or whatever to what they see - they are not aware of where the movement starts (on 1? On 2and / a?) or where the accents and such are.
You'll always lose an argument with a beginner about timing - they cannot see anything past what they know, and what they know is long and short 'steps'. Try to explain that, for instance, Int'l starts on 2, and they will blithely start 'counting' on one, missing the body action on 4/1, the accent on 2, etc.
'American Style' was created at the beginner level to be comprehendable to... a beginner. Int'l does not pander to this - the movement you start out with is the movement you can do championships with. However, the average social student simply sees a box shape and a slow and quick pattern, and believes they have 'learned' rhumba in the 4 to 6 weeks of their course. To them, what YOU dance is 'wrong'...
Even in Modern it is unfortunate that we use the word quick for a step. it makes the beginner think of step much faster than it is and it becomes haughty. You might remember a German Professional gave his veiws on this. He said that in a Quickstep class he has success by counting all of the beginners steps as Slow, no quicks at all. I would never count Latin in anything other than 2341. or 1 a 2 in Samba. I dont think even a disciple of slows and quicks would try slows and quicks in the Cha Cha.
I agree. You can say the words "Slow-Quick-Quick" and it will not make you dance that way at all. Counting 12-3-4 will make it happen. I remember when it was a big ah-ha too learn that a slow has two beats. It does seem to held one move more slowly in Quickstep to say the words "slow-slow- slow & slow". In my opinion, it is a waste of time to define rhythm as slows and quicks.
I found slow and quick very confusing. It always made me think I was to move slow or quick. When actually body movement is a constant speed. Lot of the quicks come from taking 2 steps ( side-close, chasse, forward-lock etc.. ) to move your body the same distance as other steps do.
1 and 2, 4 and 1, etc worked much better for us.
The practise of quick and slow is a real killer for Russin teachers. boistra boistra merelimbda in swing or chacha lessons is a killer for the teachers. I probably have the words a bit wring, they have to say them so fast, it is hard to understand them
Dennis. I wonder how this one got back on the calendar. With some people I think the slows and quicks are here to stay. Anybody who is serious about their international style of Rumba would be well adviced to steer clear of slows and quicks. I was reading that initially in Modern the count was always 1234. Then it was decided that to use the words slows and quicks might help a beginner At that time they didn`t have the Russian language in mind, or that of Outer Monglia. Not knowing, but i would take it that in any of the styles a slow is two beats and the quicks one beat..Transfer that to the International Style and we have 23 41. Three steps and four beats. The beat one is, in the Basics, a movement of the hips only. The foot does not move on the count of one. Those of you who are into Salsa may dance their forward step on beat one and your hip moves on four. You may or may not know that Salsa has the same Latin Motion. And you have in the Basics three steps and four beats. By the bye. some people wonder why the Modern Tango is not classed as a Latin dance. It is because there is no Latin motion in the Tango. Argentine Tango or otherwise. Interesting isn` t it.
International Rumba is 2341 and American Rumba is either Slow Quick Quick or Quick Quick Slow. Why is there a difference in the American Rumba count in different studios or schools?
In my opinion, and it is just my opinion, i dont really think that the style of count matters too much. The important thing is that the footfalls correspond to the beat of the music and that you enjoy the dance because after all dancing is all about enjoyment at the end of the day.
Gaz 124. You can answer your own question. If a Slow is used that is two beats. a Quick is one. If we dance the international timing and started with a Slow. That would be a shift of the weight to the right side or slightly forward on the count of 4 1 or slow. If we danced the first step as a quick we would be stepping forward with our left foot.. Replace weight on three and to the side on the slow which is 4 1. In both cases the forward step is one beat or quick on the second beat of the bar of music. If you were to watch Donnie Burns in his setup before the music starts playing. He stands with his LF in front of the right just as though he has taking one walk. He moves the right foot forward on the count of one. Another international competitor teaches the set up with the RF forward and the LF behind and steps straight forward on the second beat with the LF ignoring the first beat. Both ways will be dancing on the correct beat. None of them seem to like a right foot out to the side and roll over on 4 1. If you do it that way you will still be on the correct beat. Donnie Burns went on to say that even before the music starts playing he as a judge is already scanning the couples. If a couple were sitting on their haunches and only came to life when the music started . He is already looking elswhere.