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Flight the Body
Posted by Caveman
3/29/2007  4:53:00 PM
I read with great interest and sometimes it raises a smile
All those who believe the body is ahead of the foot are not thinking correctly. The spine is the centre of our balance. we drive the spine forward. Call it what you like. Bodyflight will do. We flight the spine but the foot will always beat the body. We have within us an in built instinct to do this otherwise when we dropped out of the trees a million years ago we would have fallen face down the first time we tried to walk. Personaly i dont believe that those who THINK there body is ahead of their feet have ever watched themselves on a video.
Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Anonymous
3/30/2007  6:49:00 AM
"We flight the spine but the foot will always beat the body."

The foot will beat the body to the FINISH LINE,

but the body will beat the foot OUT OF THE STARTING BLOCK.

Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Quickstep.
3/30/2007  3:01:00 PM
From a standing still position. When I move my body from over my heel to the ball of the foot. Not the toe. Is my body in front of my foot.
To make the point try this. Stand with the feet together. With your feet together make sure all of your weight is on the RF. You could lift your LF. Now put all of your body weight onto the other foot. Has my body gone beyond my foot. That is of course a sideway movement. But if I did step to the side what will move first. It wont be my body.
So now we spread our legs front to back at full stride. Front leg and back leg straight. Send your weight from the cental position over the heel of the front foot onto the ball. This is where the leg will take over. It will move ahead of the body.This is a perfectly natural muscle memory thing that none of us have to think about. What we dont want is somebody thrusting there leg out too early and so far ahead they have to play catch up.
Body in front of your moving foot. Give us a break. I would feel like a cyclist running in front of his wheels.
Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Anonymous
3/30/2007  3:16:00 PM
"From a standing still position. When I move my body from over my heel to the ball of the foot. Not the toe.""

That's the problem - if you stop your body over the ball of the foot, then you've stopped the progress of the body.

To dance smoothly, your body will have to progress constantly - from heel, to ball, to toe, to BEYOND THE TOE.

If you keep your weight stationary over the ball of your standing foot until you moving foot is placed, then you aren't dancing smoothly - you are dancing STOP AND GO.
Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Quickstep
3/30/2007  4:17:00 PM
Strange you should bring this up. I was only just reading an article that said Contrary to popular belief the body is not constantly moving forward. There are pauses. I suppose they mean that not like a ball rolling across the floor at a constant speed there are variations of the speed of the dancer
Incidently stopping over the supporting foot was not on the agender and never got a mention. The words used are from a stationary position at the beginning of our movement. Which is spoken about three times in as many pages in the technique book. Which you have by now no doubt read and have choosen to ignore.
Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Anonymous
3/30/2007  5:19:00 PM
"Strange you should bring this up. I was only just reading an article that said Contrary to popular belief the body is not constantly moving forward. There are pauses. I suppose they mean that not like a ball rolling across the floor at a constant speed there are variations of the speed of the dancer"

Changes in speed is quite accurate, and is still a category of continuous movement. But outright pauses are totally out of place in a lowered position walk-like action, and even the risen part of a figure like a feather would only be a slowing, with ABSOLUTELY NO PAUSE OR HOLD - only a slowing. (Checking figures, the peak of waltz rise, and of course tango are example of different sorts of actions - but we weren't talking about those)

"Incidently stopping over the supporting foot was not on the agender and never got a mention. The words used are from a stationary position at the beginning of our movement."

The movement begins as the body moves from the ball of the foot to the toe and then on until the center of mass is projected BEYOND THE TOE. If you do not continue the movement of your center of mass past the foot and project it into imbalance, then you ARE PAUSING YOUR BODY MOVEMENT until your moving leg is in place - a SEVERE ERROR.

That's the whole reason walking includes imbalance - because without it, continuous, non-pausing movement would be impossible once we stared taking steps longer than the length of our foot!
Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Quickstep
3/31/2007  3:14:00 AM
If you are one of those who beleives that the timing in the Foxtrot is 2341. You did have something to say about it. Then the whole beat of one is used to come into a neutral position.. Thats a big pause right there. Shoulders keep moving though. I suppose some of you scientist could work out at 28 bars per minute how long a pause there is right there.
Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Anonymous
3/31/2007  3:28:00 AM
"If you are one of those who beleives that the timing in the Foxtrot is 2341."

I do not. The timing in foxtrot (I assume we are talking about the footfalls here) cannot be represented by round numbers, instead it requires fractions that are rather messy.

For example:

1.8, 3, 4.5

"Then the whole beat of one is used to come into a neutral position.."

Not exactly, though there's something a bit like that going on. It's not so much to come into the neutral as to finish the end of the quick

"Thats a big pause right there."

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!

The motion of the body must continue throughout the ENTIRE FEATHER STEP.

Yes, at some points it is slower, though this is not even one of them. It is slower when it is up, and faster when it is down.

"Shoulders keep moving though."

Not only shoulders, but body too.

"I suppose some of you scientist could work out at 28 bars per minute how long a pause there is right there."

Your desire to pause explains a lot about why are you arguing for the wrong timing!



Reply to this message
Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Anonymous
3/31/2007  6:21:00 PM
I wouldn` t even bother to think about that timing. I think it is just a fad. I have three different articles on this. They are are all different. In one Q S Q. I wouldn` t even bother quoting from one of the articles except this. Even though we dance S Q Q we want to think of it as if all the counts are actually slow. you dont actually want to see Q Q. I` ll stop there. As I said . Its just a fad. I doubt if most of the judges are into this anyway.
Maybe another look at this time 2 3 4 1. I`ve got three steps and four beats. So I take it the 2 and the 3 are Quicks. Which leaves two beats on the last step which includes the one beat. Which leaves me with what on the first step of my Reverse, Enough said. Good for a laugh though.
Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Anonymous
3/31/2007  11:44:00 PM
"I wouldn` t even bother to think about that timing. I think it is just a fad."

It is not even remotely a fad - it is JUST WHAT IS NECESSARY TO DANCE A SMOOTH FOXTROT WITHOUT STOP & GO ROUGHNESS.

"I have three different articles on this. They are are all different."

Because it's not easy to explain exactly what happens in a way that is instructive.

"Maybe another look at this time 2 3 4 1."

That is wrong - maybe a tiny bit less wrong that 123, but still WRONG.

"I`ve got three steps and four beats."

And the logical thing to do is to divide the available time evenly by the number of steps - actual measurement of real dancers come much closer to this than you are willing to accept. In fact, there patters of longer and shorter is nearly OPPOSITE what most nievely belive it might be.

"Which leaves me with what on the first step of my Reverse, Enough said."

That was already explained - the reverse turn has THE SAME TIMING DISTRUBITON as the feather. To whatever degree the feather carries over into the measure of the revers turn, the reverse turn will carry over an equal amount in to the next measure... really simple idea.
Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Anonymous
3/31/2007  11:44:00 PM
So did you give up on the silly idea of trying to put a PAUSE in your feather??
Re: Flight the Body
Posted by phil.samways
4/2/2007  2:16:00 AM
I put up a question about body flight some time back, so have been working on it a little.
i think there's a lot of confused discussion here. I don't think anyone suggested keeping the weight on the standing leg until the moving foot is in place. And of course, the feet move more quickly than the body - when they're moving.
I agree with the person who said the body (and its centre of mass) moves ahead of the feet. This happens for a short period before the moving foot reaches the standing foot. I believe this is a crucial part of good body flight. i have been criticised by coaches in the past for not carrying my body over my standing leg properly, so i am working on this aspect.
You can't compare what might happen if you're stationary, because, when there is body flight you are, by definition, moving.
I'm still learning on this point
Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Pimpernel
4/2/2007  4:28:00 PM
Phil. Do you get comfortably to a position where you are momentory equally suspended between the heel of the front foot and the ball of the back foot. If not why not. Does the knee come into action first. Of course it does otherwise your head is moving first to move the body and my nose would be the furthest part of me to the front.
Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Anonymous
4/2/2007  7:08:00 PM
"Phil. Do you get comfortably to a position where you are momentory equally suspended between the heel of the front foot and the ball of the back foot."

I would hope he doesn't.

"If not why not."

Because the human foot is not symmetric. The ankle is located at the back of the foot, not the middle. This means that your body will naturally be closer to your front leg (which is effectively shorter to its heel) than to your back leg, which is effectively longer (to its toe).

"Does the knee come into action first."

Yes, but the body moves during this phase in order to remain over the knee. That is how the body gets ahead of the foot in the early part of each action - the body goes with the knee, but the foot initially does not.

Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Pimpernel
4/3/2007  5:13:00 PM
Isn` t my foot constantly the same measurement between the heel and the ball of the other foot or does it suddenly become larger and smaller. Either way i am sure those who wrote the books know better than you or I. Even if you had one leg longer than the other there will be a mid point.
Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Anonymous
4/3/2007  8:57:00 PM
"i am sure those who wrote the books know better than you or I."

If you take the time to read exactly what they wrote and EXACTLY WHAT SITUATON THEY WERE COMMENTING ON, I think you'll find there is a lot less disagreement between what is in the book and what I've been advocating than you presently believe. But based ont he "which goes first" thread, you don't seem willing to put enough care into reading the book to be eligible to comment on it.

"Even if you had one leg longer than the other there will be a mid point."

No. That is very faulty logic. There is absolutely no reason why the body cannot stay closer to one foot than the other throughout the entire action, excepting only the instant when the feet are in the same place (passing). And there is quite a lot of reason to believe that this is precisly what they do!!!
Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Pimpernel
4/4/2007  7:11:00 PM
You are so stupid it denies belief. How can anything go from one position to another without being at some point half way between the two. Go to your nearest door and open or shut it. Is that a simple enough explanation
For those who have just tuned in. My friend believes that what is written in plain English in the technique books is wrong. It says. At the extent of the stride the heel of the front foot and the ball of the back foot are or off the floor and the body is equally divided between the two. This is called mid -point within the trade. But because he has been given the idea, by some teacher who should be locked up, that the body travells in front of the foot he doesn`t believe there is a mid- point. As i said in the beginning How stupid can anybody be. Any of us has only to walk across the room. What would mum say if we took off with our body in front of our feet
Whilst we are here there is this other problem my friend has. When he reads or has it read to him that when going Backwards the supporting heel does not lower to the floor untill the moving foot is level with it. This is pointed out to him including the page number and low and behold within no time at all without giving any proof he says the same things all over again.
So now tell me where you can find anything from any intelligent source that says anything contrary to the above. Either put up or shut up.
Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Anonymous
4/4/2007  8:11:00 PM
"You are so stupid it denies belief. How can anything go from one position to another without being at some point half way between the two."

You've just made a dreadful error in logic.

You can't go from one POSITION to another without being halfway in between.

But that isn't what we had been talking about - we had been talking about going form one FOOT to the other.

And therin lies the difference. If you were to mistakenly place both feet into fixed positions, and move the body between them, then yes there would be a point when the body was halfway in between.

But that is just not how foxtrot is danced. Instead, foxtrot moves the body and the foot largely at the same time. The moving foot isn't in a fixed position, instead it is a moving target.

Early in the action, the body is projecting from the standing foot and the feet are still closed. The body is an equal distance in front of both feet.

Soon the moving foot is also moving, but still not caught up to the body. The body is closest to the moving foot.

Then the moving foot is directly under the moving body, and obviously closest.

Next the moving foot is slightly ahead of the body, which has by now project a long way ahead of the standing foot.

Soon thereafter the moving foot stops moving, and the body starts getting closer to it again.

The result? At no point in this process was the body equidistant between the feet - BECAUSE THE MOVING FOOT WAS ALSO MOVING.

"My friend believes that what is written in plain English in the technique books is wrong. It says. At the extent of the stride the heel of the front foot and the ball of the back foot are or off the floor and the body is equally divided between the two."

Wrong - You rephrased the passage in a way that changes it's meaning. The actual reference is to the DIVISION OF WEIGHT rather than the BODY POSITION.

Go get out your book, and recheck and you will see that there is abosolutely no mention of being equidistant between the feet. Indeed, the position described is certainly assymetric, as the front leg with it's heel on the floor and thus ankle low is shorter than the back leg, with it's heel and thus ankle substantially off the floor.

"But because he has been given the idea, by some teacher who should be locked up, that the body travells in front of the foot he doesn`t believe there is a mid- point."

Oh, so now you want to lock up Blackpool champions? Really dude, get a clue!

"When he reads or has it read to him that when going Backwards the supporting heel does not lower to the floor untill the moving foot is level with it. This is pointed out to him including the page number and low and behold within no time at all without giving any proof he says the same things all over again."

Please tell me again on what page is says that DURING A LOWERING ACTION the heel will not lower until the moving foot closes. Hint, there is no such page. The only completely detailed description of this action is given for a CASE WITH NEITHER RISE NOR FALL.

Your carelessness with these critical details is your undoing!

"So now tell me where you can find anything from any intelligent source that says anything contrary to the above. Either put up or shut up."

Get yourself some lessons with blackpool champs... they are really wonderful people to work with, and they do know a few things about dancing
Re: Flight the Body
Posted by Pimpernel.
4/5/2007  2:12:00 AM
Dont talk rot.Page 13
In the Walk at the full extent of the stride the weight is divided equally for a moment between the heel of the front foot and the ball of the back foot.
Same page Backward Walk.
Continue to move backward, draw the right foot back to the left foot and at the same time slowly lower the left heel to the floor making sure it does not touch the floor untill the right foot is level with it.
All of the above is word for word straight from the technique book.
The Forward Walk .Page 10
In the actuall Walk the weight is first on the stationary foot. At the full extent of the stride it is divided for a moment between the heel of the front foot and the ball of the rear foot. It is taken immediately on to the front foot as this foot becomes flat.
Anonymous. Take a special note of that last sentance and tell me how you can get your weight in front of the foot and do all of the above.
I know it is hard to accept that you have spent a few years learning incorrectly. I shudder to think how many poor innocent souls you are ruining because apart from your inability to listen and your inability to read what is written.You don`t appear to have any common sense.
If you would tell exactly which of the above extracts from the technique book pages 10 and 13 are not exactly as written. I will stand corrected.
Don` t evade the issue with a word smoke screen.In plain English please. And for heavens sake man read what is written and dont read into it your own beliefs. I await with my cap in my hand for an apology.
Re: Flight the Body
Posted by sqq
4/5/2007  10:30:00 AM
Even if Anonymous does not believe there usually are acceleration and deceleration during every step.

When pushing with supporting foot the body accelerates and must accelerate to transfer weight from moving foot to pushing foot. When accelerating momentum increases.

When landing on a foot there is no pushing force but braking force which decelerates and must decelerate the mass of the body to transfer weight from moving foot to landing foot to get on the foot. When decelerating momentum decreases.

When the center of mass is in front of the pushing foot it is useful to accelerate any part of the body. When the center of mass is behind the landing foot it is useful to decelerate every part of the body.

“Early in the action, the body is projecting from the standing foot and the feet are still closed. The body is an equal distance in front of both feet.”

First the push accelerates the gravity point of the body. During acceleration inertia forces push the body backwards and support not to overbalance forward.

”Soon the moving foot is also moving, but still not caught up to the body. The body is closest to the moving foot.”
“Then the moving foot is directly under the moving body, and obviously closest.”
”Next the moving foot is slightly ahead of the body, which has by now project a long way ahead of the standing foot.”

It is useful to save the accelerating swing of the moving foot latest. Accelerating force of push decreases to the end of the push. When acceleration of the gravity point of the body ends it is useful to still have the mowing foot back to be able to swing the leg forward to use the last possible accelerating mass and inertia force to support the body backwards.

”Soon thereafter the moving foot stops moving, and the body starts getting closer to it again.”

When the moving foot stops and the push has ended there is no accelerating force if not lowering. The mass of the body will decelerate. When landing on the foot it is useful that every part of the body decelerates to produce inertia forces to push the mass of the body on the landing foot while momentum decreases. Again it is useful not to swing accelerating the moving foot forward but to save the swing and straightening of the knee to the end of the stride. If one immediately swings the mowing foot strongly accelerating forward towards the standing foot he would overbalance backwards.

At the times of Alex Moore they did not know inertia forces. Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_Moment_Point knows.

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