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Spin Sway
Posted by quickstep
5/15/2007  7:10:00 PM
Jonathan. Is there any Sway in a Spin in the Standard style of dancing. Would a Sway take a couple off balance.
Re: Spin Sway
Posted by anymouse
5/15/2007  8:34:00 PM
"Is there any Sway in a Spin in the Standard style of dancing."

Not in the basic version, but yes, it plays an important role in many of the more advanced interpretations being performed to great effect by leading competitors.

"Would a Sway take a couple off balance."

Almost any movement in dance technically takes a couple off balance. The more important question is, would it disrupt their poise, or their SENSE of balance. And the answer to that is NO, not if it is properly coordinated with their movement.
Re: Spin Sway
Posted by Waltz123
5/15/2007  8:36:00 PM
The basic Spin Turn doesn't have any, but there's nothing that would prevent you from being able to add sway to Spins & Pivots. We do it all the time, in various combinations. I just don't recommend it for your next exam, if you know what I'm saying.

Jonathan
Re: Spin Sway
Posted by Anonymous
5/25/2007  5:19:00 AM
Is this right: I can dance a sway in a Spin turn to right and left? Right sway when rising on step 5 (Natural Spin Turn)?
Re: Spin Sway
Posted by Waltz123
5/26/2007  10:56:00 PM
There is a version of pivots with man's leftward (lady's rightward) sway, usually with a promenade shape. Common entries are (1) Inverted Tipple Chasse (man forward, lady back), or (2) the Outside Spin variation where the man sways to L on 2 and opens the lady to a promenade shape.

The Running Spin Turn is also often accompanied by leftward sway on steps 3-4. The sway actually begins to kick in slightly earlier, between steps 2-3.

As for a pivoting type of action with rightward sway, you may have heard of something called a Lunge Roll. It's probably most common in Tango (preceding the Stop Lock), but versions exist in Waltz, Foxtrot and Quickstep, too. Technically it's not a rightward sway that's held throughout the entire turn; You generally transfer weight to the RF (LF for lady), then commence sway. And mind you, this is not just any normal sway, a good lady will really lay this one out (hence the "Lunge"), pivoting all the while.

And here's another one: The Overturned Spin Turn to Turning Lock to R. It's not just a spin with straight rightward sway, however. Like the Lunge Roll, the sway starts kicking in mid-movement. Think of it as a smooth Lunge Roll with rise... The body is straight as you approach the RF, then sway begins once the weight begins transferring, and continues to increase as you move away from it and towards the next step. The rightward sway is then held through the beginning of the Turning Lock, straightening out between steps 2 & 3.

Regards,
Jonathan
Re: Spin Sway
Posted by anymouse
5/27/2007  8:40:00 AM
"And here's another one: The Overturned Spin Turn to Turning Lock to R. It's not just a spin with straight rightward sway, however. Like the Lunge Roll, the sway starts kicking in mid-movement. Think of it as a smooth Lunge Roll with rise... The body is straight as you approach the RF, then sway begins once the weight begins transferring, and continues to increase as you move away from it and towards the next step. The rightward sway is then held through the beginning of the Turning Lock, straightening out between steps 2 & 3."

Yes. And this plays an important role in linearizing the movement of the spin turn and turning lock, giving the overall grouping three clear line segments: The DW movement of the natural, the LOD movement of the spin turn and turning lock, and finally the DC movement of the promenade. If instead, the spin were interpreted as a sort of vertical pivot and then toe pivot, you'd tend to get the look of the partners going in circles round each other there, and loosing the clear sense of progression down the floor.
Re: Spin Sway
Posted by Anna
5/27/2007  4:27:00 PM
Do we Sway on a Spin. Is the actuall Spin a progresive step or is it stationary. We step into a Double Reverse Spin and we step out of a Double Reverse Spin. Do we Sway or move as the feet come together. not if you are dancing with me you dont. Pivots can have Sway and movement Spin i think not.
My comment on a Turning Lock after a Overturned Spin Turn. If as a man you sway to the right. Have you given any thought to the ladies steps throughout this barbaric action. They would have to Sway to the left. If you want to turn an established group into something it is not then don`t call it a Turning Lock which should finish in promenade position diagnal to the centre for an entry into a Running Weave.
If there was any hint of a Sway on the Turning Lock it would be the other way around and not to the man`s right..
Re: Spin Sway
Posted by Waltz123
5/27/2007  8:52:00 PM
Is the actuall Spin a progresive step or is it stationary.
Most rotation in closed position ballroom dancing is progressive. But progressive rotation doesn't necessarily preclude any other range of motion. There are only two things you can't do during progressive rotation: Stop moving, and stop turning. (Well, technically you can, but then it's no longer progressive rotation.

Ballroom dancing is entirely about moving through three basic ranges of motion (progression, rotation and swing/sway) in various combinations and speeds. At any given time you can have one, two, or all three. To say that only two can exist at once is silly.

Pivots can have Sway and movement Spin i think not.
The ultimate show of arrogance is to declare that just because you are incapable of doing something, it means it can't be done.

That's not to say that you should necessarily try it. Perhaps it's not for you. Pivot & Spin actions do not require sway; It is simply an option, and not one that you ever have to explore... especially if you lack the skill to pull it off.

Nonetheless, good dancers do it all the time, and they somehow manage to execute it with extreme grace and elegance. "Barbaric" is a reasonable word to describe what happens when an under-qualified dancer attempts it, but the same could be said of any movement. Even the most basic bronze sway-less Spin Turn can look "barbaric" if attempted by a beginner who is not familiar with the basic technique.

If you want to turn an established group into something it is not then don`t call it a Turning Lock which should finish in promenade position diagnal to the centre for an entry into a Running Weave.
You certainly like to limit yourself. Then again, that may be exactly what you need to do at this point in your dancing, so it's not necessarily a bad thing. Just remember that not everybody requires such limitations as your own.

Turning locks can sway to the left OR right, can be ended in closed OR promenade position, and can be followed by just about anything. If you're into the whole 1994 thing, yes, a Running Weave or Quick Open Reverse to Tumble Turn is a lovely pattern to follow with. Tried and true. But it doesn't need to be followed by anything to be called a Turning Lock. The defining qualities are not what comes before or after, but what it is: A lock step that turns.

Regards,
Jonathan
Re: Spin Sway
Posted by Anna
5/28/2007  8:21:00 PM
The main point of this discusion is the Turning Lock following an Overturned Spin Turn to back the LOD. Not the one that follows a Spin Turn backing diagnal to the centre which we all know does not have Sway to the right. I might add that ordinary Lock Steps Quickstep or Waltz plus an Outside Spin has no Sway at all. Neither does a Double Reverse Spin. So who teaches a Sway to the right for a man on a Turning Lock backing LOD. It is not a Tipple Chasse which would Sway left anyway. It is interesting but the Turning Lock it is a deep cross and not the half hearted one we so often see. Main point. There should be no Sway to the right for a man on a Turning Lock that has an alignment of backing LOD. So i am told. This is the Internation Style of Ballroom Dancing. For the other styles i haven`t a clue.
Re: Spin Sway
Posted by phil.samways
5/29/2007  2:44:00 AM
Hi Anna
It's interesting because we do a spin turn, back turning lock (backing LOD) opening out to promenade.
I've been told that 'no sway' is the English style. Correct and nice if done properly. Sway to the right is the 'italian' style. More volume, harder to do well, but more interesting.
We do the sway to the right version. I find it brings my body round, helping my partner move round me smoothly, and there is an 'over-the-top' feeling about opening in promenade, which is nice.
I have a habit of collapsing a bit to the right, instead of projecting myself up and out to sway. But i know about it, and i'm working on it.
Re: Spin Sway
Posted by Anna
5/29/2007  4:41:00 PM
Hi. Phil. This goes back to Harry Smith- Hamphire who i think quite rightly stated that. If we are going to allow changes to the technique. The books must be regulaly upgraded. If it isn`t the different styles will become chaotic. It is the book that has kept the style on the straight and narrow all these years. The judges have a duty to, if they want to find a difference to mark between two couples , the one who is doing the correct technique should get the vote. And it does happen that way. Best wishes
Re: Spin Sway
Posted by Anna
5/30/2007  5:44:00 PM
Phil. When we do a normal Lock Step we stop Locking when our thighs meet. It is not a tight Lock. A Turning Lock is not a normal Lock Step. The foot goes past otherwise it is not a Lock that we turn on. If i swayed to the right as a man That crossing foot will not go into the correct position. If the Sway is first to the left and only to the right after the Lock. Then it does make some sense if it can be controlled. I was thinking twice about putting this in, but here goes.
This is how we are taught the Turning Lock finishing in Promemade.
At the end of the Spin Turn the man finishes facing against the LOD and holding that position extends his right leg behind without turning pointing the toe diagnal to the centre. From there it is a clean step straight into the Turning Lock. I wonder if i have written this so it is understandable. I think you will find that done this way the turning is over the Lock.
Re: Spin Sway
Posted by quickstep
5/31/2007  2:23:00 AM
I have had a look at Marcus Hilton on
Ballroom Competition Figures 2. There is a Turning Lock in both Quickstep and Waltz. Neither of them have Sway to the right. The Sway to the right might be something that has crept in in recent years. And maybe it will go like that near splitz that an Italian introduced a year or two ago in the Tango.
On the Chasse Roll to the Right by Marcus Hilton there is just a slight sway to the left looking at the line of his shoulders. Some people might be excused from thinking that they are watching a Turning Lock, but as we know they start on different feet on beat one.
Re: Spin Sway
Posted by anymouse
5/31/2007  8:28:00 AM
"Turning Lock in both Quickstep and Waltz. Neither of them have Sway to the right."

Two places to look for the sway:

1) As the man passes the lady during the second step of the spin turn action, you will usually see a sway to the right there, because he tends to SWING past her.

2) At the transition between the spin turn and turning lock. Many of the top English teachers refer to the proper body positions at this point as being a "mini oversway" And I use those quotation marks literally!

Incidentally, remember that the primary location of sway is in the HIPS. Inexperienced dancers often create it by collapsing their ribcage so that it shows up as an incline of the shoulders, but on experienced dancers it is in the hips. The shoulders may either incline with the hips, or remain more level than them, depending on preference. So just because you don't see an incline in the shoulders does not mean that there is no sway! Nor does seeing an incline in the shoulders on lower quality dancers necessarily mean that there is - you might simply be seeing broken sides.
Re: Spin Sway
Posted by phil.samways
5/31/2007  9:27:00 AM
Marcus Hilton would of course do the 'English version@ Nothing wrong with it - especially, as i said, when done very well, as of course it is in his case.
Anyone seen Gozzoli doing it? I must look.
Anonymous - wouldn't it be the case that, in a sway, the shoulders should be kept in the correct position relative to the top of the spine? This would mean they would slope slightly.
I agree about not collapsing. I owned up to this in my previous posting, but i'm working on it!! (it's just a habit picked up when i was learning )Extend up and project.....(don't hit the light fittings though)
Re: Spin Sway
Posted by quickstep
5/31/2007  8:59:00 PM
We still come to what is Sway. Watching the fore mentioned tape. On step two of the Natural we have Sway definitely. The whole of the body is on an incline. Nobody would say that isn`t Sway. Then on another step we have just the slightest incline one way or the other which can be seen at the shoulders level. Is that Sway. Compare the two on 4 5 of a Natural Spin Turn. Which is the one you can`t possibly do. The one you can`t possibly do is as step two of a Natural.
The point is. Don`t think of a perfectly natural movement of the top line as being Sway. It is simply to get from one position to another. In other words we do what comes naturally. What we don`t do is over emphasise, turning something that isn`t a sway, and turning it into a mess. Mess meaning an out of balanced body or a misshaped ugly top line that will get you no marks. Does that make sense.
It might be worth taking a look at the Foxtrot video from last years Blackpool. Timothy Howson uses more sway than Mirko Gozzoli. Jonathon Crosssley on that Fallaway you will see a movement of the shoulders. What we can see up to the lead up is very subdued Sway. Chris Hawkins on his Wave has far less Sway than Timothy Howson. Keep an eye on those shoulders. In his swivell, nobody would call that Sway. I wonder what you misguided sway merchants would be doing
Re: Spin Sway
Posted by anymouse
5/31/2007  9:20:00 PM
"I wonder what you misguided sway merchants would be doing"

Quickstep, you know your irresponsability with the facts is just atrocious.

For starters, you are ALL WRONG about Hilton's use of sway. I'm looking at Marcus Hilton on a superstars video, where he does a spin turn and turning lock to left. You had better believe he has OBVIOUS, right sway on the spin turn, just as Jonthan and I suggested was the usual practice. And then on the turning lock (to LEFT), he sways to the left.

In fact, Hilton has MORE sway on that spin turn that he does on some of his naturals, many of which he chose in that particular dance to perform in a very vertical non-sway manner.
Re: Spin Sway
Posted by quickstep
6/1/2007  2:55:00 AM
So you agree that there is no Sway to the mans right. which was the main point of the discussion on a Turning Lock. And is the slight incline of the shoulders called Sway. If it is what do you call the second step of a Natural.... Sway involves the whole of the side from tip to toe. A slight incline of the shoulder is not.
Whilst we are getting technical The 1st step of a Spin Turn is a Pivot .The Spin is on the 5th step. In the book .There is no sway on a Natural Spin Turn after the first three steps of the Natural.
So we have. Amount of Turn. On steps 1 to 3 make three eighths of a turn. Half a turn on step four. And 3/8ths of a turn between steps 5 ans 6.
Body Sway. To the right on 2 and 3. No Sway on the actuall Spin.
I looked at Ballroom Figures 2 once again. There is no sway on the 4 5 6 of the Spin Turn. Or an Outside Spin . Or in Natural Pivots. Or on a Turning Lock.
The only thing I can think is you have been watching an exhibition . As any Professional will tell you that in a Demonstration they do things they wouldn`t dream of doing in a competition. That includes the content. Every thing I have with Marcus Hilton he keeps very erect with that magnificent top line. I doubt that he does any different wherever he dances.
I`ve just had a look at a tape with Marcus Hilton the 1995 World Dance Festival. His Spin Turn is exactly as it is on the Ballroom Competitions Figures 2. Not a suggestion of a Sway in the Spin Turn.
Re: Spin Sway
Posted by phil.samways
6/1/2007  4:48:00 AM
Hi Quickstep
Have you studied anyone other than Hilton? Any top italian dancers, for example.
Hilton would dance the 'classical' English style.
I'm afraid i won't be here for a week. So have fun everyone and try not to miss me too much
Re: Spin Sway
Posted by anymouse
6/1/2007  7:05:00 AM
"So you agree that there is no Sway to the mans right. which was the main point of the discussion on a Turning Lock."

I DO NOT AGREE! There is nothing in my message to support such a conclusion.

I commented that Hilton used sway to the left in a turning lock to left. In a turning lock to right I would guess he often uses sway to the right at the beginning, just like most others.

"And is the slight incline of the shoulders called Sway."

I'm not talking about an incline of the shoulders (though that happens in this case), I am talking about a BODY sway.

"Sway involves the whole of the side from tip to toe."

Which is what Hilton did. Moreso in his spin turn actually, than in a number of his naturals, some of which he chose to make very upright rather than swingy, as that suited their application in this case.

"Whilst we are getting technical The 1st step of a Spin Turn is a Pivot."

Not usually. I know what you are reading, but the fact is it's not quite a full pivot even in the book, and it's very rarely danced as any sort of pivot at all. It only tends to be done as a pivot by new beginners, or by advanced dancers when very underturned or as part of a SERIES of pivots.

"The Spin is on the 5th step. In the book .There is no sway on a Natural Spin Turn after the first three steps of the Natural."

Nonethless, the majority of serious competitors make frequent use of sway there. This is the differnce between what you learn if you have only books and watered down teaching videos as a guide, vs. if you are out there in the real world as an active dancer, watching and studying with the best teachers. Which you plainly aren't.

"I looked at Ballroom Figures 2 once again."

I have a strong suspicion that teaching tapes are often watered down to make them "safe" for all audiences. Karen Hilton you might recall took a lot of criticism for a rather unorthadox explanation of heel turns in a lecture. Would not suprise me at all if they made videos hewing to the orthadox line, without the full some-experience-required details of what they themselves dance or teach their non-beginner students.

"There is no sway on the 4 5 6 of the Spin Turn. Or an Outside Spin . Or in Natural Pivots. Or on a Turning Lock."

Well, there isn't any if you insist on dancing like a beginner for the entirity of your life, a decision you've clearly made for yourself. The rest of us are interested in learning about these things called nuances and application specific details.

"Every thing I have with Marcus Hilton he keeps very erect with that magnificent top line. I doubt that he does any different wherever he dances."

Actually, I saw marked application-appropriate contrast within a single waltz! Some of what are normally swing figures like the 123 of natural turn were at times quite vertical with minimal sway, because they were preceding some very stand-up-vertical type pivots and thus matched that character of action. On the other hand, he did things that might to a beginner be purely vertical (like the spin turn) with noticeable swing and thus sway, because that's a far more efffective way to dance them when your goal is to flow down the floor, rather than to spin from foot to foot. Contrasting ideas within one single dance... my, what will they think of next?
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