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Attention to details.
Posted by Serendipidy
5/21/2008  4:51:00 PM
Who would like to give an opinion . In the International Foxtrot on the Reverse Turn. In the technique books there are 3/8 of a turn between 1 and 3. How much of that turn is made over the LF. Is most of the turn taken on the LF. Taking into consideration that the second step is a sideways step and the third step is straight back down the LOD. Also look at the ladies step on step one on which she is turning on the Right Heel only. Which makes most of the turn on which foot for both the man and lady.
Re: Attention to details.
Posted by nigelgwee
5/21/2008  5:12:00 PM
This is not an opinion, but a direct reading from the ISTD syllabus. The man does a 1/4 turn between steps 1-2, 1/8 between 2-3; the lady does all her 3/8 turn between 1-2.
Re: Attention to details.
Posted by Serendipidy
5/21/2008  5:48:00 PM
nigelgwee. It gets interesting because what I am looking at on two demonstrations is no further turn on the RF step two and nothing on step three which is straight back
When reading the ladies steps How is it, if that turn is on step one Should two have been mentioned as part of the 3/8 turn when the 3/8 is not part of step two. The same for the man on step three. Why include it. Do you see what I mean. It can be so easily misread. Look at Luca and Hilton for a demonstration of a Reverse Turn.
Re: Attention to details.
Posted by nigelgwee
5/21/2008  6:39:00 PM
Serendipidy. As I understand it, turns are measured BETWEEN foot placements, and refer to the feet rather than the rest of the body (which often turns less, especially on backward movements).

Looking at Alex Moore's descriptions, I see where you might have got the description of 3/8 turn between 1-3 (Man) [the ISTD syllabus is just a little more detailed]. You're right about Step 3 moving straight back containing no turn (Moore's description is "...3/8ths of a turn between 1 and 3, and 3/8ths of a turn between 4 and 7"--notice there's no turn between 3 and 4).

This would explain why the lady's 3/8 turn is described as between steps 1 and 2. Her (heel) turn is complete by step 2.

On the man's step two, however, perhaps you might want to look at the feet specifically--the upper body in the demonstration may hardly rotate at all at this point. This isolation between the upper part of the body and the feet is what I find especially beautiful about much of standard/smooth dancing.

Hope this helps. In the meantime, I'll pursue your suggestion and check out Luca and Hilton--ultimate models of standard technique, IMHO.

Cheers.
Re: Attention to details.
Posted by Serendipidy
5/22/2008  5:32:00 PM
nigelgwee. It does get interesting and the books somewhat contradictory. When it says On the Reverse Turn in the Foxtrot on the second step " RF to the side across the LOD. Then it says"
" Continue to turn on the RF ".
Why would I continue to turn on a step that I have completed. So I go to the demonstrations of both Luca and Marcus.
Then I start to see other things that I hadn`t noticed before. The raising of the left heel at the end of step one. And how close to the RF the LF goes ,brushing and under the body before stepping back LF.
This is also interesting. Richard Gleave teaches that on an Open Imputus Turn. As the LF goes back on step four the head goes back with it. This ensures that the turn is made over the LF. Good Luck.
Re: Attention to details.
Posted by nigelgwee
5/22/2008  8:26:00 PM
Serendipidy. At the risk of sounding over-technical and alienating some readers:

"Continue to turn on the RF": Refers to the 1/8 turn between 2-3. The RF is placed on step 2 but the rotation continues until step 3.

"The raising of the left heel at the end of step one" indicates to the lady the heel turn.

Re. the Open Impetus Turn: You're probably referring to the maintenance of sway to facilitate going into promenade position.
Re: Attention to details.
Posted by Serendipidy
5/23/2008  5:52:00 PM
nigelgwee. First the Fourth step on an Open Impetus as taught by Richard Gleave has nothing to do with sway. The instruction is that the head goes with the man`s LF as he steps back down the LOD. If you don`t, you will walk away from your head leaving it in a forward position in relation to your LF and the body weight. Also from the book. Close RF to LF turning on the Left Heel. This is also a Closed Impetus Turn.If you can find Luca and Lorain`s Slow Foxtrot Demo. Which is on a tiled floor therefore it is simple to see exactly where he is stepping and on what alignment. If you can see any turning over the RF after step two is in place then you can tell me. After that you might find Marcus Hilton`s Basic Foxtrot which you will find is exactly the same.
One more point. Whenever we step to the side in any of the dances we will step from a toe to a toe in a position which is up, having raised the heel of the supporting foot. This is attention to details.
Looking at Luca again on the eighth bar of music see how he takes a half a turn over his left foot into a Reverse. The RF , the one under question can be seen as clear as day.
Re: Attention to details.
Posted by nigelgwee
5/23/2008  8:46:00 PM
In the Luca/Loraine video I do see a slight amount of rotation on the man's R toe in the Reverse Turn in question (the one near the beginning), and also at the beginning of the Extended Reverse Wave (the one where they nearly run out of room).

In the Hiltons' Basic Foxtrot clip (I'm assuming it's the one where they do it three times, counting the timing and so forth), Marcus also rotates very slightly on his R toe in the corresponding Reverse Turn near the beginning of the video. Since he's done quite a large turn on his previous LF, the RF turns very little, if at all.

Is it just me, or would anyone else care to comment on what they see in these videos?
Re: Attention to details.
Posted by Iluv2Dance
5/24/2008  1:47:00 AM
Hi to All,
In the slow Foxtrot, the second step of the Rev Turn, is a forward step,- do not swing the leg around partner, as Waltz - and when the majority of weight (would this signify the end of step 2 of 1/4?) is received onto the RF turn is then made, making sure that the left foot brushes to the ankles of the right foot and in so doing keeping a small base, before stepping back.

The way to remember this is to count 5 forward steps, starting with the Feather Step on the RF and not to think of swinging into a turn between steps 4-5, but just to step forward and then back for step 6.

If you have never danced it this way, try it. This is what you are seeing when viewing the videos.

I would like to mention that Loraine Barry (Baricchi) is in my opinion one of the best lady dancers of all time.
Re: Attention to details.
Posted by Serendipidy
5/24/2008  2:15:00 AM
lluv2Dance. You aren`t looking at the videos on youtube that I am looking at. Just as the technique book says they step to the side , across the LOD on step two. You tell me. Can you see any further turn over that step two on the man`s RF. It makes it easy to see dancing on a large square tiled floor. I can only tell you what I can see. I have been able to copy onto my computer the ones I am refering to. Luca`s RF does not move even a fraction of an inch. Anybody can see it if they wish.
The trouble with most that I see is that the CBMP on the Feather Step is not done correctly. The left shoulder needs to be on a line with diag to centre. Not square to the middle or even worse pointing diag to centre against the LOD with the foot where it should be and that is diag to centre. In a nutshell the later is CBM . It should be CBMP. Only then can you get the turn that we see done by the best.
Re: Attention to details.
Posted by Iluv2Dance
5/24/2008  4:12:00 AM
Serendipidy,
Look again and you will see a forward step on step 2 of the Reverse (Rev) Turn. It is not to the side until the turn has commenced. Also you'll notice that the hips are only turned on step 1 of the Rev, to bring the lady back into contact from the outside partner step which was danced in CBMP. Then it's the shoulders that continues the turn. The hips align up with the shoulders when the foot turn is made on step 2.

A common fault is for the man to continue to turn to the left, through the hips, which can cause the lady to be pushed back and to lose control of the heel turn on step 1.

Please don't write and tell me the definition of CBM, as used on step 1 of the Rev.

This message should keep you going for awhile, Serendipidy.
Re: Attention to details.
Posted by SocialDancer
5/24/2008  2:54:00 AM
"Is it just me, or would anyone else care to comment on what they see in these videos?"

Not really. We commented on the videos, text books, opinions and facts and seemingly endless discussions when Serendipidy raised this subject not long ago.

I guess he did not like our answers as he is trying again.
Re: Attention to details.
Posted by nigelgwee
5/24/2008  6:46:00 AM
Hello all! Thanks for joining in!

Quite often, what the textbooks say and what is actually done are quite different, e.g., side steps. Also the amounts of turn are not set in stone.
Re: Attention to details.
Posted by Iluv2Dance
5/24/2008  6:53:00 AM
Absolutely true nigelgwee.
There can be no exactitude in dancing, especially with amounts of turn.
Re: Attention to details.
Posted by Serendipidy
5/24/2008  4:50:00 PM
I would say that some of you like an ostritch have your head in the sand. I notice that nobody disagreed that the Reverse Turn is now being done differently to the way it was in the Stone Age. I would assume that the videos I mentioned were looked at. I don`t see anybody claiming that the RF did moved any further than the spot it landed on which is backing the LOD.
There is no exactitude in dancing. What you are saying is you can please yourself. Not if you are backing the LOD absolutely square to your partner on step two of a Reverse Turn in the Foxtrot. If you don`t see that then please write in and tell me what you think you do see.
Repeat after me. There are none so blind as they that will not see.
Do yourselves a favour and just go to Learn the Dances on this site. Then the Reverse Turn in the Foxtrot. Who is game to tell me how much turn is made on a Reverse Turn over the Left foot.
Re: Attention to details.
Posted by SocialDancer
5/24/2008  6:26:00 PM
"Repeat after me."

I'd rather not. This whole thread is already getting to be a repeat of this one;
http://www.ballroomdancers.com/Message_Board/view_messages.asp?Topic=30336
Re: Attention to details.
Posted by Iluv2Dance
5/25/2008  3:07:00 AM
/* Who is game to tell me how much turn is made on a Reverse Turn over the Left foot*/

Don,
The turn on the LF is only made when the majority of weight has been transfered to the RF. In other words, you don't purposely turn on the LF.

/*There is no exactitude in dancing. What you are saying is you can please yourself*/

Silly statement, but one to expect from you when you start to struggle. As SocialDancer pointed out, and rightly so, you have gone through this one before. You also covered this about two years ago, when you wrote telling me that the man didn't have a foot rise on step 4 of the Rev Turn.

I think the Natural Spin Turn should be next.
Re: Attention to details.
Posted by Serendipidy
5/25/2008  2:40:00 PM
lluv2dance. I take it that you have looked and studied closely the videos i have mentioned including the one on this site. If as you suggested that the second step of a Reverse Turn in the Foxtrot is straight ahead. That is not across the LOD as is written in the technique books. I can only say go to the Revere Turn Foxtrot on this site and tell us how much turn is over the man`s LF. It will only take a minute. Then compare it to Luca or Marcus and you will find they are identical.
As for step four it has been in the books since the beginning that there is foot rise on step four of the Reverse Turn. I dont know why you think I said anything different Alex Moore makes a point
of saying this ( see page 23 )and the footwork is THT.
How did the Spin Turn get into this.
Just follow the correct technique. Half a turn over the LF , no rise untill the end of step five. The rest of the turn is made between step five and six.
Back to the Foxtrot. Unless the correct alignment and the CBMP is applied correctly the Reverse Turn will not be done as it should be done.
Lets analyse this a little further from the ladies side. She is doing a Heel Turn. If I step onto my RF. Doesn`t that send the ladies weight to her Left when it needs to be over her RF on a Heel Turn ( singular ) and not Heels Turn which is plural. Do you see the difference.
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