English
Hello, guest.

Log In or
Register
Return to Forum
32 Messages
Page 1 of 2
Next »
Waltz and Foxtrot Timing
Posted by 40niknar
7/8/2008  9:26:00 PM
I am confused between the beats and the timing between the Foxtrot and the Waltz....

There are 6 beats to the basic Foxtrot, but yet there are 8 beats to the measure. Is the Foxtrot 4-4 timing?

I don't understand how you can dance 6 beats of the Foxtrot to an 8 beat measure.

We dance Waltz 6 beats to a measure as there are only 6 beats in a measure of Waltz (not 8 as in Foxtrot). What is the timing of Waltz? 3-4? 4-4?

Can someone help explain how the Waltz and the Foxtrot both have 6 beats to a measure?
Re: Waltz and Foxtrot Timing
Posted by CliveHarrison
7/16/2008  10:57:00 AM
The Waltz is danced to music with 3 beats to 1 measure (3/4) and most figures are danced 1 step to 1 beat. Counting is 123 123 123 etc., but some figures use divided beats, the simplest being the whisk and chasse, where the count would be 123 12&3. Several figures are danced over 2 measures, such as Natural Turns & Reverse Turns. Each has 6 steps, but each of 1 beat, and the musical count would still be 123 123, not 123456.

Foxtrot is danced to music with 4 beats to 1 measure (4/4), but steps are counted as slows or quicks. A quick is 1 beat, but a slow is 2. The basic figures of foxtrot are of different lengths: Feather Step & Three Step, both 1 measure of 4 beats, counted SQQ; Reverse Turn 2 measures, counted SQQSQQ and Reverse Turn 2 1/2 measures, counted SQQSSS (all as Guy Howard).

I'm not sure that I can see how either dance can be considered to have 6 beats to 1 measure. Neither do. The only dance that can follow that pattern is Viennese Waltz, using music in 6/8 metre (although 3/4 at a faster tempo is more common). The 6/8 time signature is in compound time, with a quaver (eighth note) pulse, so that the six beats fall into two accented groups: 123 456 (which is why the VW fits), and not just like 3/4, with its crotchet (quarter note) pulse. If 3/4 was counted in quavers, you would get 1& 2& 3&, rather than 6/8's 123 456.
Re: Waltz and Foxtrot Timing
Posted by anymouse
7/9/2008  7:02:00 AM
"There are 6 beats to the basic Foxtrot, but yet there are 8 beats to the measure. Is the Foxtrot 4-4 timing?"

There are four beats to the measure in foxtrot.

If you have a 6-beat basic sequence (probably SSQQ) that will take you a measure and a half worth of music to dance.

Re: Waltz and Foxtrot Timing
Posted by 40niknar
7/9/2008  8:00:00 AM
Not being a musician, I guess what has confused me was instructors counting just before they want you to start your move by saying 56,5678. Therefore, I had always thought there were 8 beats to a measure. Now that the light has come on, I can more clearly see how there are 1-1/2 measures in SSQQ. Why do instructors count to us as 56,5678 (or sometimes just 5678)?
Re: Waltz and Foxtrot Timing
Posted by anymouse
7/9/2008  8:16:00 AM
"Why do instructors count to us as 56,5678 (or sometimes just 5678)?"

It's sometimes useful to think of pairs of measures, in which case the first measure would be 1234 and the second one would be 5678.

If you start a dance sequence on a "first measure", then the measure preceding the start of dancing would be a "second measure".

Re: Waltz and Foxtrot Timing
Posted by 40niknar
7/9/2008  9:14:00 AM
OKKKK, now that makes a lot of sense. Thank you for a much clearer understanding!
Re: Waltz and Foxtrot Timing
Posted by GENEWILMAN.COM
7/9/2008  2:37:00 PM
MOST PEOPLE THAT HAVE ASKED THAT QUESTION ARE PEOPLE THAT HAVE HAD SOME SORT OF MUSIC EXPERIENCE, PEOPLE THAT HAVE TO COUNTS UNITS AND MEASURES....WHEN ASKED ABOUT THAT IN MY CLASSES, I USUALLY ANSWER THE SAME AS EVERYONE ELSE HAS...BUT I ALSO ADD THAT A WHOLE NOTE IS EQUAL TO ONE STEP OR A SLOW AND 2 QUICKER NOTES SUCH AS A HALF NOTE IS EQUAL TO A HALF STEP OR A QUICK QUICK IN DANCE TIME, USUALLY A FEET TOGETHER IN A BRONZE STYLED FOXTROT BOX STEP.....OR JUST LEARN TO DANCE WITH USING OUR METHOD OF LEARNING AND FORGET THE MEASUREMENTS OF MUSIC..UNLESS THEY ARE TRAINING TO BE A CHOREOGRAPHER AND NOT A BALLROOM SOCIAL DANCER. THEY ARE POSSIBLE NOT GOING TO A SOCIAL DANCE AND FIGURE OUT HOW MANY SLOWS OR QUICK SHOULD BE THERE IN THAT 56 BARS OF 4/4 TIMED MUSIC OR 65 MEASURE OF 3/4 TIMED SONGS.
Re: Waltz and Foxtrot Timing
Posted by Polished
7/9/2008  4:21:00 PM
Not all that clear. A slow has two beats to one step. A quick has one beat for one step. A syncopation has two steps to one beat of music. This is for 4/4 Tempo
The Waltz which is 3/4 is not counted in slows and quicks. The Tango is, but is better if counted in beats to make sure that after a Progressive Link we do not step off into a Closed Promenade on the count of 1 2. It should be 3 4.
Re: Waltz and Foxtrot Timing
Posted by jofjonesboro
7/9/2008  4:34:00 PM
Genewilman, using all caps makes it difficult to read your posts.

Learn to use your shift key.

jj
Re: Waltz and Foxtrot Timing
Posted by dheun
7/12/2008  2:44:00 PM
The counting/timing can be hard for beginners to grasp. What I especially see is the beginners I work with have a hard time getting quickly back into the S after the SSQQ.
In other words, they hesitate a split second to get their bearings, so to speak, and then it turns into a more choppy sequence. So I really try to stress the gliding, the heal-toe, heal-toe, toe-toe .. then quickly into heal-toe, etc. really without breaking stride. The QQ are best at a slight angle as well, allowing that momentum to keep moving forward along LOD.
Does anyone have a tip/advice related to this, maybe even in terms of counting to the tempo, to make it easier to grasp?
Genewilman may have been touching on this, but I agree that post was hard to stick with because of the all caps.

Re: Waltz and Foxtrot Timing
Posted by Polished
7/12/2008  4:41:00 PM
dheun . I take it that this is Foxtrot. You could start by using one beat which is beat four for the introductory step. Step away from that step with the RF Then swing the left side forward off the RF which was the first of the Feather Step. This is CBM. I have always found that by using a slow on the introduction makes it confusing, especially for those who wonder after starting . Where has that slow gone. A Feather Step is S Q Q. Not S S Q Q.
There is a Chinese Proverb
Tell me and I will surely forget
Show me and I may remember
But make me do it and I will surely understand.
( show me are the key words here ) and keep showing.
Re: Waltz and Foxtrot Timing
Posted by jofjonesboro
7/12/2008  6:49:00 PM
So why couldn't you take the last two beats of the previous bar for a slow prep step?

jj
Re: Waltz and Foxtrot Timing
Posted by Polished
7/12/2008  11:47:00 PM
jofjonsboro. It is not what or why I do. It is what is being done. You have been looking, I think on youtube, but have not been paying attention, you are seeing only what you think you see and not what is. This is also the same in the Quickstep. You might be suprised to know that some of what you are looking at. Many dancers , if you count do all there Feather Steps by not using the fourth beat but use beat one as a preperation followed by three quicks. After a Change of Direction it is not uncommon for a dancer to dance four quicks into a Feather Step. Change of Direction becomes S on the LF. S on the Right Foot and step through LF on one beat leaving the other three beats for the Feather. Why do it this way. because the other way takes up too much time. Go to the O6 Final at the British and watch Crossly give a perfect demonstration. not from a Change of Direction though. It appears that he was forced into changing his routine slightly when he got blocked.
You might also count Timothy Howson at the very beginning who uses the fourth beat as an entry. We live and learn dont we. The lesson to be learnt is never take anything for granted.
Re: Waltz and Foxtrot Timing
Posted by cdroge
7/13/2008  8:57:00 AM
Polished,ifyou dance the timing as you say "if you count do all there Feather Steps by not using the fourth beat but use beat one as a preperation followed by three quicks" what timing do you use on the reverse turn as there is only one preperation step in a two minute foxtrot? For begginers I would say forget the timing of the steps and think instead of moving the body at one speed and also swinging the legs at one speed for all quicks and slows, the feet finding there own position on the floor,the size of the steps be as they may.
Re: Waltz and Foxtrot Timing
Posted by Polished
7/13/2008  4:49:00 PM
Cdrogue. Todays top dancers are incredibly talented and know every beat of music in a tune. If for some reason they need to alter the timing, it is done to stay in rhythm and phrase. They will either pause or used a syncopation. John Wood on his tape calls it having Elephant Ears. He goes on to say Or be like most others around you who are out of rhythm out of phrase. Out of rhythm is dancing back to front 3412 instead of 1234. also if you are out of rhythm you are also automaticly out of phrase. Pages could be written on this subject but to make it simple. Your steps have been designed to fit the music perfectly. You get knocked or hindered. You are to do an Open Telemark. If you continue in the normal way your first step would be wrong on 34. So you syncopate it making the timing Q and Q. which becomes 3 and 4 and leaves 1 2 to come out in the normal way. To stay in rhythm in the Quickstep is very easy. There are dozens of steps that can be added to stay in with the music. Something as simple as a Double Lock. Or what is called an Open Lock which is S Q and Q will get you back on the correct beat. After all , who wants to enter a Natural Spin Turn on beats 3 4 with the music.
Re: Waltz and Foxtrot Timing
Posted by jofjonesboro
7/13/2008  7:17:00 PM
Polished/Quickstep/serendipidy/ - The only thing that is certain is that no one will ever learn anything from your poorly written posts.

As usual, your references aren't worth the time that it takes to read them.

BTW, the spelling is "their."

jj
Re: Waltz and Foxtrot Timing
Posted by anymouse
7/14/2008  7:40:00 AM
"dheun . I take it that this is Foxtrot... A Feather Step is S Q Q. Not S S Q Q."

dhuen is dancing foxtrot alright, but not a form of foxtrot built on feather steps.

The proper timing of most of the figures he or she is dancing is in fact SSQQ rather than SQQ.


Re: Waltz and Foxtrot Timing
Posted by Polished
7/15/2008  1:11:00 AM
cdroge. I should have put that most use timimg on a preperation step is (and )Quick which is of course is 4.
As you seem interested. A step starts when the feet are under the body. It is deemed finished when it again arrives under the body. That`s one step. If it is a slow as in the first step of the Feather the break down of the steps is . Three halves of a beat to send the foot forward and the remaining half a beat to arrive under the body.It is easy to count 123...4 untill it is in the muscle memory. It allows us to stand on the supporting leg longer. I`ll wait untill I get attacked before I will say who teaches this way.
Re: Waltz and Foxtrot Timing
Posted by cdroge
7/15/2008  6:28:00 AM
As you seem interested. A step starts when the feet are under the body. It is deemed finished when it again arrives under the body. Well yes no, the end of the first step of the Natural turn in the waltz ends with the left knee along side the right knee with the foot still trailing behind. With a backward step it would start with the knees along side each other but the lower foot would be back ready to move onto it. Thats if you know how to dance.
Re: Waltz and Foxtrot Timing
Posted by anymouse
7/15/2008  7:20:00 AM
"Well yes no, the end of the first step of the Natural turn in the waltz ends with the left knee along side the right knee with the foot still trailing behind."

No.

In the formal language of ballroom technique, the end of an ordinary passing step is defined to occur when the feet (not the knees) are momentarily together.

32 Messages
Page 1 of 2
Next »
Copyright © 1997-2014 BallroomDancers.com