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Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by Polished
8/19/2008  5:30:00 PM
Anonymous. You have made your position very clear. You do believe that a person should judge their own pupils. You have given several reasons why you think its correct. I will never agree with that. If this went before Judge Judy . I wonder what her ruling would be. Is that program still on over there.And I will say again. It takes only one person to manipulate any system to their advantage and others will have no choice but to do the same. That why one rotten apple will spoil the whole barrel.
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by anymouse
8/19/2008  7:10:00 PM
"Anonymous. You have made your position very clear. You do believe that a person should judge their own pupils."

Once again, you paraphrase someone's argument with critical changes instead of quoting it.

I've said repeatedly that having the teachers judging their students is not ideal, but that it's preferable to having second rate teacher or judges.

"You have given several reasons why you think its correct."

No, I have stated why it is not as problematic at serious competitions as you seem to believe it would be.

"And I will say again. It takes only one person to manipulate any system to their advantage and others will have no choice but to do the same. That why one rotten apple will spoil the whole barrel."

You've repeatedly failed to explain how "one person" can manipulate the skating system of mark tabulation. That's the whole point of the skating system - a biased judge or two can't pull or push the results very more than a place or so on their own, because it takes a majority of the panel to award a placement. Experienced dancers and judges know this, which is why we're more interested in improving our dancing to play to the honest majority of judges, rather than in finding our own ways to cheat.
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by Polished
8/19/2008  7:38:00 PM
Anonymous Can you find your way to Dancsport UK .
Then Articles and Interveiws
Then to How can a couple lose when the majority of judges marked them to win .. Read it for yourself and the comment if you think it can`t happen. Also in smaller competitions I doubt if the Skating System is used. Imagine three judges Three competitors Two of the judges judging their own. What chance has the third couple got.
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by anymouse
8/19/2008  8:15:00 PM
"Anonymous Can you find your way to Dancsport UK .
Then Articles and Interveiws
Then to How can a couple lose when the majority of judges marked them to win .."

That article fails to state what the real issue is: under skating except in the case of ties, the result in each of the five dances is determined using all of the judges' marks for that dance alone, and then then the results of the dances are combined to determine the overall winner. The article is based on the premise, which it fails to state, that if you instead treated each judge as a panel of one and determined who they had as the overall five-dance winner, and combined those results from each judge, that this would give a different result.

But this is not relevant to the discussion of bias or corruption, because it was about the precise placement between two couples who were very nearly tied in the collective eyes of the judging pool. That's a very different case than the inability of one maverick judge to substantially distort the majority voice by voting in an extreme manner - they can perhaps swap the tabulated results of closely matched couples, but the algorithm prevents them from moving a weak couple to the front or a top couple to the bottom. Under skating it ordinarily doesn't matter if their vote is one mark away from the majority or 5 marks away from the majority, it still has the same limited effect.

Due to this, the skillfully dishonest judge would cast marks only one place away from the expected opinion of the the others - it would have the same quite limited effect as outrageous marks, and such minor differences of opinion could usually be defended.

"Also in smaller competitions I doubt if the Skating System is used."

I have only ever seen one instance in which it was not used, and it was not used due to the ignorance of the first time organizers. There were many complaints and they never made that mistake again.

"Imagine three judges Three competitors Two of the judges judging their own. What chance has the third couple got."

As I said before, if there are only three judges all bets are off. No serious competition uses so few.
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by Polished
8/24/2008  3:53:00 AM
Anonymous. So all of your writting tells us nothing. Is it possible under the Skating system for a pair to score more firsts and not win. Did it actually happen. And you never answered yes or no to . If there are three judges. Three competitors. Two of the judges are judging their own . What chance has the third couple got. Would you give them any chance.
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by anymouse
8/24/2008  9:40:00 PM
"Anonymous. So all of your writting tells us nothing. Is it possible under the Skating system for a pair to score more firsts and not win. "

It's always possible to score more firsts and not win. Thats part of what projects us from biased or simply bad judges who give outlying marks.

Winning requires securing a majority of marks for a higher place than anyone else, and in the cited example that did not happen in enough dances for the couple that the author thinks should have won.

The article you reference is very misleading - it acts as if the judges award overall placements for five dances combined, which they simply do not. As a result, the situation as literally cited never occurred, because the marks referenced simply do not exist - there are no rules in the book for combining placements in each dance by judge to determining overall 5-dance placements by judge, so it's impossible to have a majority of them.

Instead, if you follow the rules that do exist in the book, you award first in each dance to the couple who secures high placements from a majority of judges, and then the overall winner is determined by combining the placements per dance.

"Did it actually happen. And you never answered yes or no to . If there are three judges. Three competitors. Two of the judges are judging their own . What chance has the third couple got. Would you give them any chance."

If they are better than the others, yes. A judge who mis marks couples is simply embarrassing himself. But as I've said repeatedly, a competition with only three judges is too small to be taken seriously.
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by Polished
8/25/2008  3:12:00 PM
Anonymous. A competition with only three judges is too small to be taken seriously.
Try telling that to a young lady who has bought a new dress practised hard , been to the hairdesser.paid special attention to her make up. It is as important for that couple as it would be if it was the final at the British. What would you say if I told you that after the event one of the three judges ,who she didn`t know from a bar of soap, came over and said I don`t know how you didn`t win that event. I marked you first.The other two both went out of time. You he added were in time and together . The other two weren`t. If you think this is an isolated case I don`t know were you have been hiding. No judge should judge their own pupils. If it were found that they did they should be banned from judging. Do you agree.
If you don`t you must be as dishonest as they are.
I would suggest that you now look at the thread below " Unfair Judging "
Which seems to have suddenly disapeared for some reason.
I just looked at your coments earlier.
8.19.08 You made it very clear that you are in favour of judges judging their own pupils .
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by anymouse
8/25/2008  3:30:00 PM
"Anonymous. A competition with only three judges is too small to be taken seriously.
Try telling that to a young lady who has bought a new dress practised hard , been to the hairdesser.paid special attention to her make up."

Such an event can be a great way for a partnership to rehearse and put their best effort forward. But it should not be though of as a "real" competition. An event which violates usual rules and procedures that seriously, such as by having only three judges, is quite likely to have other procedural violations as well.

Think of it as a fun opportunity to dance. But don't fool yourself into thinking that it necessarily means anything.

"What would you say if I told you that after the event one of the three judges ,who she didn`t know from a bar of soap, came over and said I don`t know how you didn`t win that event. I marked you first.The other two both went out of time."

Dancing involves many factors, and timing is only one of them, not the whole story. Often times in low level events, a couple who is rhythmically on time is doing some ugly things in their dancing to get there, while one that is off time may be dancing much more naturally and gracefully, because they are not making those compromises. You see this quite often in the foxtrot - most beginners simply don't have the strength to dance in time without distorting their posture and making their movement "bumpy" and overtly rhythmic rather than smoothly flowing as a stronger and more experienced couple would.

In that circumstance, being on time has a dance quality cost that will lower your marks from some judges, while being off time is a fault that will get you low marks from others. This diversity of priorities is part of why we have large panels, and why the skating system prioritizes getting decent marks from a majority of the judges instead of getting excellent marks from a minority of them.

"No judge should judge their own pupils. If it were found that they did they should be banned from judging. Do you agree."

I absolutely do not agree. If you think that someone should be banned for doing what is universal and rarely problematic practice, then you are living in your own private little world of unreality. The rest of us spend our time dancing in the real world, and improving our skills to earn marks from all of the honest judges.

If you want something to worry about, try the real problems that do plague smaller events unable to hire enough top-notch judges to always have a fully expert and attentive panel: fatigue, incompetence and intoxication...
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by Polished
8/25/2008  3:37:00 PM
Anonymous. Answer the question and don`t give me pharagraphs of dribble which I class as a smoke screen.
Answer. Do you believe that judges should judge their own pupils. Do you believe that it is fair that judges should be allowed to judge there own pupils. Is this an ideal situation.
Yes Yes Yes or No No No to the three questions is all that is needed nothing more..
Look at Unfair Judging by Unhappy
12. 9 . 2005 and Jonathans answer.
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by anymouse
8/25/2008  3:58:00 PM
"Anonymous. Answer the question and don`t give me pharagraphs of dribble which I class as a smoke screen.
Answer. Do you believe that judges should judge their own pupils."

I already answered your question numerous times:

August 19

"I don't believe it is ideal, but banning it would mean either that the best available experts are not available as judges, or are not available as teachers. "

August 19 (again)

"I disagree. I don't think it's ideal, but I'd rather have experts who teach the competitors than 2nd rate dancers who aren't expert enough for any competitors to want to study with them."

August 19 (yet again - busy day!)

"I've said repeatedly that having the teachers judging their students is not ideal, but that it's preferable to having second rate teacher or judges."

------------------------

Try reading sometime... before you post again in pretend ignorance of the fact that your question has already been answered so many times.
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by Polished
8/25/2008  4:19:00 PM
Anonymous. I think when Jonathan wrote. The longer you hang around the competetive world, the more you`ll realize the extent of politics, but you`ll`learn to play them to your advantage. And he goes on to say That if you want to step up a notch , it doesn`t hurt to take lessons with other coaches. That`s not selling out...thats being smart.
Anonymous. If you were judging and two were dancing out of time Would you mark them over one couple who was perfectly in time. Yes or No.
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by jofjonesboro
8/25/2008  4:38:00 PM
"Jonathan wrote. The longer you hang around the competetive world, the more you`ll realize the extent of politics, but you`ll`learn to play them to your advantage. And he goes on to say That if you want to step up a notch , it doesn`t hurt to take lessons with other coaches. That`s not selling out...thats being smart."

Could you show me where Jonathan made such statements? I'm not disputing your recall; I would just like to read his exact words.

The implications of such remarks are very troubling.

jj
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by anymouse
8/25/2008  5:34:00 PM
http://www.ballroomdancers.com/Message_Board/view_messages.asp?Topic=8034

If you read the original, it's much less alarming than polished makes it out to be:

Jonathan wrote:

"The longer you hang around the competitive world, the more you'll realize the extent of the politics, but you'll also learn how to play them to your advantage. That doesn't mean that you have to be a total sell-out, but there are certain simple things you can do to minimize the negative effects on you. For example, be nice to everyone, make a lot of friends, and don't speak poorly of anyone EVER (even your greatest rival, even though you KNOW he's nowhere near as good a dancer as you).

If you want to step it up a notch, it doesn't hurt to take lessons with other coaches. That's not selling out... that's being smart. And often, you'll find that the lessons are really good, too. Selling out is taking lessons purely for political purposes (especially when you know you're not going to get anything out of it). But if a lesson has educational value, take it. You will improve your dancing, and any political gains are purely coincidental."
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by jofjonesboro
8/26/2008  6:32:00 AM
True, "alarming" would not be the correct term to describe this situation.

"Sad" would be.

jj

Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by anymouse
8/25/2008  5:09:00 PM
"Anonymous. If you were judging and two were dancing out of time Would you mark them over one couple who was perfectly in time. Yes or No."

Timing is only one of many factors, so I would mark the couple whose overall dancing is best. That might be the one who is on time if they are good in other respects, or it might be one who is clearly better them in all respects except for being off time. There is no single factor that outweighs all others.

My marks would then be combined under that skating system with those of a number of other judges, each having their own perspective and priorities. The winner will be the couple who convinces a majority of us that they are the best on the floor.
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by jofjonesboro
8/25/2008  5:17:00 PM
anymouse, you may have already clarified this point. If so, excuse me.

I have two questions. First, do you judge? If so, have you judged your own students in heats wherein they competed against dancers who were not your students?

Just curious.



jj
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by Polished
8/25/2008  9:54:00 PM
Anonymous. If you are out of time you should not be looked at twice. Will somebody else confirm that in the US it doesn`t matter if you are dancing out of time in a competition.
Terence might be interested in this one. Len Scrivener was the sole judge in a low grade Waltz competition He refused to give anybody a place. He scraped the lot.
Terence would you mark anybody who was dancing out of time over somebody who was dancing in time.
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by terence2
8/25/2008  11:04:00 PM
Thats not a black and white Q... I will give you 2 e.g. .. these are factual..

I was judging a Prof mambo comp in the late 70s.. a 6 couple final.. next to me, was a world reknowned coach in Latin... he turned to me and said ( which made laugh ) " Terence, if you see anyone on time, lets mark them 1st. ! "

Second.. this was stated by A. Moore..... a student asked him this Q.. " Mr Moore if I were off time ( it was Cha ) would you mark me ? ".. his response.. " Yes, as long as you stayed on the same beat " .

To mark any competitor over another, one has to take multi things into consideration.It would depend on how often and in what circumstance .

"Off time " was always considered one of the cardinal sins in dance.

Now , obviously if it were W, I would not even consider marking.. I might give a little more latitude if it were QS, Mambo/Salsa .

And, all of this is contingent on the level of the comp. ( Novice.. pre champ etc ).
Judging large rounds is never an easy task, and "catching " someone off time might be an isolated instance .This goes towards explaining why sometimes you see very different marks ( or no marks ) in larger events.. the disparity is usually minimal in Finals .
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by Polished
8/26/2008  2:25:00 AM
Terence2 When Alex said Yes , as long as you stayed on the same beat..Is it possible he was thinking Quickstep and Foxtrot where some dancers not knowing any better even walk in with a prep step on 1 2. in the Quickstep as well as the Foxtrot. From there they are in time but out of rhythm which also means they will be out of phrase.
My parents had lessons with Alex. He was fanatical about footwork, timing and dancing together as a pair.Maybe he thought the Cha a bit of a joke. Latin wasn`t really his cup of tea.
Re: Judging own pupils
Posted by terence2
8/27/2008  12:53:00 AM
The Q was specifically about Cha.. it was published in his news letter .


The way latin was danced then WAS a joke !!... and, altho. strict, he was still poss. the most approachable of the many high profile teachers of the time (40s/50s ).

On my visit to the UK with my then wife ( 1983 ), we lived around the corner from his studio for a while.

Went by his studio to say hello with one of my friends, got to chatting with Eliz. Romain about latin, she then asked me if we were going to the UK at Hamm.. Palais , I said maybe... she replied, why not come and sit with me in the balcony? .. ( we did ) they were both very genorous with their time .
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