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Re: Abbreviation query
Posted by jofjonesboro
9/12/2008  6:38:00 PM
But more importantly, the reason I maintain it's unecessary to bring this into the answer to a beginner question is that a beginner dancer does not need to know when to say a step can or cannot be considered to be be placed CBMP, they need to know what to do when an expert has written that it should be placed in CBMP.


And the difference would be . . . ?

Oh, and CBMP HAS NO STEPS! It is a position of the body and feet.

And yes, the quotation used by Telemark fits nicely with my observation. There are no contradictions between the two phrases.



jj
Re: Abbreviation query
Posted by anymouse
9/12/2008  7:27:00 PM
"Oh, and CBMP HAS NO STEPS! It is a position of the body and feet."

CBMP is a position into which a given step can be placed, which comes in two flavors indicating how far across to the other side of the body it the foot lands.

Going circularly around the standing foot, the front half choices for step placement are:

side
side and slightly forward
diagonally forward
forward
forward in CBMP
forward and across in CBMP (and PP)


As a matter of definition placements are relative to the standing foot not to the body, so "across" refers to the moving foot landing across the standing foot - both "forward in CBMP" and "forward and across in CBMP" are placed across the body, while the first lands in front of the standing foot and only the second is across it.

Re: Abbreviation query
Posted by dheun
9/12/2008  9:50:00 PM
The original poster probably could have learned all he or she needed to know by going into this site's learning center and clicking on the diagonal movements section. The CBMP is illustrated in a manner that shows a beginner all they would need to know at this point.
If you did a search of "Contra Body Movement in the Waltz" it would probably be several pages of explanation. In other words, you'd have information overload.
BlahBlahBlah BlahBlah
Posted by jofjonesboro
9/13/2008  4:17:00 PM
Why did you even make that response? You said absolutely nothing! Are you trying to claim that CBMP DOES have steps? ANY position on the dance floor is one "into which a given step can be placed, . . ."

You still have not explained the difference between a student's ability to identify a step and the same student's ability to execute it when told to do so. Guess what? There is none.

jj
Re: BlahBlahBlah BlahBlah
Posted by Polished
9/14/2008  5:21:00 AM
I don`t think any of you have mentioned that on all steps taken outside your partner either forward or back must be in CBMP. If you do not you will come apart Alex Moore only needed 57 words to explain CBMP which is a lot less than most of you writting.
One other thing that is related is that every first step of any figure you can find is straight without any turn untill the end of.
Re: BlahBlahBlah BlahBlah
Posted by Telemark
9/14/2008  6:50:00 AM
All steps OP must be in CBMP? What, even step 3 of a Fishtail in QS?

BTW, Howard (as quoted verbatim) uses 31 words to Moore's 57. Buy a technique book, Polished.
Re: BlahBlahBlah BlahBlah
Posted by jofjonesboro
9/14/2008  6:47:00 AM
Perfectly good descriptions of CBM and CBMP have been provided in this thread. Some people have chosen to take issue with those descriptions for reasons which no one else would imagine.

jj
Re: BlahBlahBlah BlahBlah
Posted by dheun
9/14/2008  1:35:00 PM
jj, you are a humorous fellow, I'll give you that. Look at the original poster's question, and I would bet my house that the learning center's diagonal directions info would have answered her question sufficiently, along with explaining that it meant Contra Body Movement Position (which of course would mean nothing to her if she didn't know what Contra Body Movement was). If that's crazy, then I guess I just joined in with everyone else who made it more complicated than it needed to be. But yes, I would agree that, throughout the bevy of answers, solid information was offered. You still have a penchant for not letting the original poster read responses and decide for themselves what sinks in and what doesn't. But I'm OK with that. You're really not a bad cop in that regard -- and you know your stuff, which is of vital importance and helpful to others, and you've improved my knowledge and dancing often.


Re: BlahBlahBlah BlahBlah
Posted by anymouse
9/14/2008  5:11:00 PM
"One other thing that is related is that every first step of any figure you can find is straight without any turn untill the end of."

Not true.

In classic technique the direction of travel is unaltered during step one, but there are steps in which official "turn" (which specifically means turn of the moving foot) occurs as step one is placed, which is quite a bit before the end of step one. We just had a go on that recently with the weave from promenade after a whisk, surely you have not forgotten already?
Re: BlahBlahBlah BlahBlah
Posted by anymouse
9/14/2008  5:18:00 PM
"You still have not explained the difference between a student's ability to identify a step and the same student's ability to execute it when told to do so. Guess what? There is none."

The subject is not a step, but a property of a step.

There is a substantial difference between understanding an idea enough to apply it when instructed to (which is what we'd be aiming for with a beginner - when it says CBMP, place the moving leg across your body), vs. being able to figure out when in a sequence of movements such a technique should be used based on an in-depth understanding of its definition and the mechanics of the piece of dancing being attempted.

It is, as I said before, the difference between being qualified to read a book, and being qualified to write one.
Re: BlahBlahBlah BlahBlah
Posted by jofjonesboro
9/15/2008  6:26:00 AM
But more importantly, the reason I maintain it's unecessary to bring this into the answer to a beginner question is that a beginner dancer does not need to know when to say a step can or cannot be considered to be be placed CBMP, they need to know what to do when an expert has written that it should be placed in CBMP.



There is a substantial difference between understanding an idea enough to apply it when instructed to (which is what we'd be aiming for with a beginner - when it says CBMP, place the moving leg across your body), vs. being able to figure out when in a sequence of movements such a technique should be used based on an in-depth understanding of its definition and the mechanics of the piece of dancing being attempted.


The concept of CBMP hardly qualifies as "in-depth" knowledge. It's impossible to teach the bronze Standard syllabus without it.

Any instructor who teaches CBMP without also explaining its purpose isn't much of an instructor.

Finally, you are incorrect to claim that CBM and CBMP have nothing in commmon except nomenclature.

The disagreement is specifically with this idea that you can only understand CBMP in relation to CBM.

It's false - they are seperate concepts and it's easier to learn what each really means on its own, than to worry about why some dance teachers once, perhaps unwisely, named one in allusion to the other.


Both the movement and the position (which is part of the movement) are taught for the same reason.

jj



Re: BlahBlahBlah BlahBlah
Posted by anymouse
9/15/2008  7:15:00 AM
"The concept of CBMP hardly qualifies as "in-depth" knowledge."

We'll get to that in a minute.

"It's impossible to teach the bronze Standard syllabus without it."

Indeed, but it does not need to be presented in a way as arcane as it's definition. It can instead be presented as its practical impact: step diagonally across your body.

"Any instructor who teaches CBMP without also explaining its purpose isn't much of an instructor."

Generally agree, however the definition says absolutely nothing about purpose. I'd much favor explanation of the practical impact and the purpose to messing about with a definition that confuses a fair fraction of even the professionals.

Now as for the utility of the definition itself, I'll ask your opinion on the following statement by a professional dance teacher. Do you agree with it? Do you find it demonstrates understanding of the definition of CBMP, or misunderstanding?

"For example, if your first step is forward on the right foot with the turn to the right, you would first wind up by turning the body to the left before you begin. As you take your first step forward, you start turning right so as to unwind. You want to turn so that when the step is complete, your body is squared off to the feet. If you overturn, you'll be in CBMP, which is wrong."

Would you agree with this author, who seems to hold the belief that if your CBM body turn results in an opposite side lead, you have achieved CBMP during that step?
Re: BlahBlahBlah BlahBlah
Posted by jofjonesboro
9/15/2008  9:38:00 AM
"For example, if your first step is forward on the right foot with the turn to the right, you would first wind up by turning the body to the left before you begin. As you take your first step forward, you start turning right so as to unwind. You want to turn so that when the step is complete, your body is squared off to the feet. If you overturn, you'll be in CBMP, which is wrong."

Would you agree with this author, who seems to hold the belief that if your CBM body turn results in an opposite side lead, you have achieved CBMP during that step?


If the body is square to the feet then you do not have a leading side.

jj
Re: BlahBlahBlah BlahBlah
Posted by anymouse
9/15/2008  10:03:00 AM
"If the body is square to the feet then you do not have a leading side."

That was not the question. Please take a look at the last two sentences of the quote again:

"You want to turn so that when the step is complete, your body is squared off to the feet. If you overturn, you'll be in CBMP, which is wrong."

Do you agree with this author's belief that if CBM turn goes beyond body square to feet and results in an opposite side lead, then CBMP has been achieved?

Do you find that idea to be in keeping with the definition of CBMP, or in contradiction to it?
Re: BlahBlahBlah BlahBlah
Posted by jofjonesboro
9/15/2008  11:11:00 AM
Do you agree with this author's belief that if CBM turn goes beyond body square to feet and results in an opposite side lead, then CBMP has been achieved?


First of all, we don't know that your inference is indeed this author's belief. The author may simply have written the sentence poorly.

However, I will respond to your supposition.

We can assume that the phrase "squared off to the feet" means that the shoulders are perpendicular to the direction of the feet at the end of the step. We must also assume that the feet have identical alignments.

One reason that I say that the sentence may be poorly written is the lack of clarity created by the use of the word "step," which can mean one relocation of one foot or a pattern of steps, what I usually call a figure.

If we further assume that the feet are together then obviously there could be no CBMP.

If, however, we assume that the feet are not together then the question of CBMP would depend on the relative position of the feet to each other.

jj
Re: BlahBlahBlah BlahBlah
Posted by anymouse
9/15/2008  11:35:00 AM
"However, I will respond to your supposition."

The question is really much more fundamental than you are making it out to be:

Can body turn (CBM) result in CBMP on that same step?

Or does that conflict with the part of the definition of CBMP ("but without turning the body") that some were considering so critical?

Note that I am not talking about CBM and CBMP occuring on the same step (we should all know that is frequent), I am talking specifically about CBMP that is caused by CBM body turn on that same step.

If you believe this is possible, then what is the meaning of "but without turning the body" in the definition?

If you believe it's not possible, then how can the subject of CBMP be simple when even the pros are getting it wrong?
English 101 for dancers
Posted by jofjonesboro
9/15/2008  12:35:00 PM
The text in question: "The placing of the stepping foot, forward or back, onto or across the line of the other foot, giving the appearance of CBM having been used, but without turning the body."


Unfortunately, the original author was not a very good writer, especially with regard to punctuation. The last comma is unnecessary and actually distorts the clarity of the phrase.

Therefore, the last part of the text should read: "giving the appearance of CBM having been used but without turning the body."

Clearly - at least to myself - the author is trying to say that a dancer in CBMP appears to have just executed CBM except that the body is not turned.

Can body turn (CBM) result in CBMP on that same step?


Your question is a bit ambiguous. If by "result in CBMP" you mean that the step ends in CBMP then the answer is obviously "no." If, however, you mean that CBMP is approximated at some point during the movement then the answer would be "yes."

jj


Re: English 101 for dancers
Posted by anymouse
9/15/2008  1:16:00 PM
"Your question is a bit ambiguous. If by "result in CBMP" you mean that the step ends in CBMP then the answer is obviously "no." If, however, you mean that CBMP is approximated at some point during the movement then the answer would be "yes.""

If by approximated you mean "looks like" then I would agree:

CBM body turn looks a lot like CBMP (or conversely CBMP looks a lot like strong CBM has been used), but it isn't.

Except that a number of professionals (including Jonathan who runs this site) are of the opinion that CBM which takes you beyond being square does mean that CBMP has been achieved...

...which gets back to my point that the subject is one complicated enough to confuse even the professionals, and a more directly application-oriented explanation is appropriate for introducing it to beginners.
Re: English 101 for dancers
Posted by SocialDancer
9/15/2008  5:04:00 PM
"Can body turn (CBM) result in CBMP on that same step?"

Let's take as an example a step forward on the RF. A strong body turn to the right, accompanied by a natural turning of the trailing left foot, can result in a position where the RF is on or across the new line of the LF. If we had to name that overall position it would be reasonable to name it CBMP, and we would probably think of it as a 'body' position.

"Or does that conflict with the part of the definition of CBMP ("but without turning the body") that some were considering so critical?"

No, I don't think it conflicts with the definition of CBMP as a 'foot' position, where we are talking about achieving the same overall position by placing the foot relative to a body which has already turned.

In the first case we are turning _into a_ CBMP, and in the second we are stepping _in_ CBMP.




"If you believe this is possible, then what is the meaning of "but without turning the body" in the definition?"
and
"The text in question: ""The placing of the stepping foot, forward or back, onto or across the line of the other foot, giving the appearance of CBM having been used, but without turning the body.""

Unfortunately, the original author was not a very good writer, especially with regard to punctuation. The last comma is unnecessary and actually distorts the clarity of the phrase.!

Therefore, the last part of the text should read: ""giving the appearance of CBM having been used but without turning the body.""

Clearly - at least to myself - the author is trying to say that a dancer in CBMP appears to have just executed CBM except that the body is not turned."



I believe the phrase is almost redundant, with or without the comma (which I also believe is correct).
How would CBM appear without turning the body?

If the comma is correct, we can remove the phrase between the commas and get: "The placing of the stepping foot, forward or back, onto or across the line of the other foot but without turning the body."
We probably do not need the part about not turning the body - if it is not mentioned, don't do it.

However it may actually help clarify the definition, and definitions are notoriously difficult to make accurate, concise and unambiguous.

The simple definition without reference to turn or CBM is not sufficient.
In the absence of any pre-conceptions, a person asked to stand with their feet slightly apart, then to place their RF in front and in line with their LF will most likely turn the body slightly to the left. They will have met the requirements of the simple definition but are not, and have not stepped, in CBMP. Adding the comment about not turning the body will result in a just recognisable CBMP. Adding "giving the appearance of CBM having been used" makes it unmissable.



As far as the original poster is concerned, it is probably simplest to forget about CBMP until your teacher explains and demonstrates it. Just keep your body facing your partner.
Re: English 101 for dancers
Posted by anymouse
9/15/2008  6:17:00 PM
"The simple definition without reference to turn or CBM is not sufficient.
In the absence of any pre-conceptions, a person asked to stand with their feet slightly apart, then to place their RF in front and in line with their LF will most likely turn the body slightly to the left. "

I would guess, at least if they had any exposure to dance habits at all, they would be much more likely to turn their body to the right.

However the question itself is based on an unlikely premise: leaving aside the tango and a few unusual situations in the others, CBMP positions don't tend to come from nowhere, and they are not generally executed with the body square to the feet. Instead they are generally preceded by a same-side lead on the preceding step, which may be simply carried over without change to become an opposite side lead on the CBMP step.

In other words, CBMP features the result of body turn relative to the feet, but it's turn that happened sometime previously.

If this setup is satisfied, then the simple instruction to step across the body is likely to result in something approaching the desired result, at least to the degree to which the beginner is physically capable of finding comfort in a CBMP position.

"They will have met the requirements of the simple definition but are not, and have not stepped, in CBMP."

Nor in your example will they have stepped across their body as I had suggested we instruct them. I specifically did not choose to phrase it relative to the standing foot, because while the book is written that way, it's not how most people are used to thinking - instead of foot-relative, we tend to be body-relative. And while CBMP is defined with respect to the feet, the reasons for using it are mostly with regard to the body, or more exactly the fitting together of two bodies.
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