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Re: Bronze Waltz
Posted by emsanchez
10/30/2008  1:27:00 AM
Thank you very much for your help. My partner and I start with the Nat. spin turn ended backing diag.centre, then dance 4-6 of Reverse turn ended facing LOD into a Closed Telemark ended facing diag. wall, followed by a RF Closed change OP turned ¼ to the right into a Whisk turned ¼ to the left into a Chasse from PP.
We recently moved to another town and our new dance teacher disagrees with this part of our Waltz routine. She says that 1. the Closed Telemark should start facing diag. centre and turn less (1/4) and when I dance it this way, I really feel more comfortable and we don't finish side by side; 2. there is no turn on the Closed change and it shouldn't be danced OP.
I would very much appreciate your opinion.
Re: Bronze Waltz
Posted by terence2
10/30/2008  4:53:00 AM
First.. I would not suggest commencing a basic sequence with a spin turn ( at a corner or LOD ). You have essentially created a " stationary " figure when your objective should be " flight ".
Use variations that are going to move you down the LOD either thru the use of Nat and Rev turns and or standard whisks and chasses. A DR spin needs to be included .

The closed tele. leaves too much room for error .

The key to your level of comp. is good clean footwork and variations that are rhythmical and on time .
Re: Bronze Waltz
Posted by Anonymous
10/30/2008  12:38:00 PM
"First.. I would not suggest commencing a basic sequence with a spin turn ( at a corner or LOD ). You have essentially created a " stationary " figure when your objective should be " flight "."

An overturned spin turn however will progress. And do so more smoothly than almost anyone can dance the back half of a natural turn.

"A DR spin needs to be included ."

I would not recommend doing a double reverse spin unless you can do it very well. By the time someone can do it well, they do not usually fit into the community of bronze dancers. Think of it like foxtrot: in theory bronze (internationl) foxtrot exists, but in practice it is almost never offered in sanctioned competition.


The closed tele. leaves too much room for error .
Re: Bronze Waltz
Posted by Telemark
10/31/2008  12:42:00 AM
I think a Natural Spin Turn an excellent figure to start a waltz sequence. Do you pivot properly on the first step of the spin, holding the RF in CBMP, ready to extend forward down LOD on the second step? A rather restricted rocking action is very widely danced by relatively inexperienced dancers, sometimes for years, without correction, and it greatly impedes the flow of the figure.

Lady's second step is LF back & slightly leftwards, and it is a key movement to make space for the extension of the Man's second step RF fwd, HT. That heel lead is very important.

Be careful with the idea of overturning the Spin. It is only at corners (and if you want, deliberately, for the sake of certain amalgamations) that we restrict the turn to 5/8. Along the side of the room, the spin will properly make 7/8, and the more we dance the standard turn, the less it will feel any effort.
I see that you're in one of your 'moods' again.
Posted by jofjonesboro
10/31/2008  6:18:00 AM
Trying to take issue with good basic advice does not make you appear to be more knowledgeable. In fact, the details of your response to Terence make me wonder if you might not be well.

I would not recommend doing a double reverse spin unless you can do it very well. By the time someone can do it well, they do not usually fit into the community of bronze dancers.

This statement is utter nonsense on its face. The DRS is a standard part of the bronze repertoire and no one competes in bronze without it.

Also, a couple's competition level is pretty much always going to be lower than their current level of study.

Think of it like foxtrot: in theory bronze (internationl) foxtrot exists, but in practice it is almost never offered in sanctioned competition.

Really? Every competition which I've attended - all of them sanctioned - has offered bronze Fox Trot in all age and experience categories.



jj
Re: Bronze Waltz
Posted by terence2
10/31/2008  6:29:00 AM
Your F/trot remark needs clarification.. as is often the case, mis in formation abounds.

If you were refering to Children and Novice dancers, that could possibly be true.

To say it is NOT included in a Bronze level comp., is displaying a lack of knowledge about the Comp. circuit. I personally have adjudicated hundreds at that level, and majority have it included in their sequences .

As to advanced levels , even pro,s are using at as an entry for a Drop Ronde for e.g. ( a la Hilton )

maybe I should call Marcus and advise him not to use it !!
Re: Bronze Waltz
Posted by phil.samways
10/31/2008  8:37:00 AM
If i could just make a few comments on this. One of the important aspects of beginner/novice/bronze syllabii is that it ensures that dancers develop skills in a range of fundamental movements. The DRS is tricky for a beginner to master, but we all went through this as part of technique development. A good teacher will know if the pupils have mastered it well enough for a competition, and also whether the movement suits the couple. Remember nobody dances every figure 'perfectly'.
I still use it (as a pre-champ dancer) in foxtrot, but not all the time. It also can be fun to dance socially, since it takes up little space.
Re: Bronze Waltz
Posted by SocialDancer
10/31/2008  12:27:00 PM
"The DRS is tricky for a beginner to master,"

Which is why at least one major society puts it in the Silver syllabus, so it may not be appropriate for emsanchez yet.

This is all assuming emsanchez is competing. I don't think that was stated explicitly but most people here assume that if you have a bronze level routine it must be for competition. This has a bearing on advice given as everything said so far is valid if the dancers are on the floor before the music starts and hoping to make a good impression right from the start.

Socially however things may be different. When joining dancers already on the floor I always recommend starting with a reverse figure which mean the leader has a good view of the floor and any approaching couples. I hate it when a couple walks onto the floor and the man stands with his back to me counting the music, listening for the correct time to start.
Re: Bronze Waltz
Posted by anymouse
10/31/2008  3:23:00 PM
"Your F/trot remark needs clarification.. as is often the case, mis in formation abounds."

Read the rules for sanctioning organizations, and you will discover that many of them recommend only waltz and either quickstep or tango for the bronze division competitions. Does bronze foxtrot exist? Yes - they don't prohibit organizers from offering it so some do, and other organizations may have other guidelines. But it's not as commonly offered as bronze waltz is.

"If you were refering to Children and Novice dancers, that could possibly be true."

Novice, yes, bronze competitive events are a subcategory of the traditional umbrella of "novice" - ie, "novice bronze, novice silver, open novice, etc"

"As to advanced levels , even pro,s are using at as an entry for a Drop Ronde for e.g. ( a la Hilton )"

I did not say that the DRS was not used at advanced levels; rather I said that the back half of the natural turn is rarely used there. The closed changes are also quite rare. They occur, yes, but there's a general preference not to end with the feet closed, especially when the man is moving forwards.

And the reason for that is that nobody, even world champs, can dance that lower and drive forward from foot closure action with the kind of fullness that they achieve elsewhere in their dancing. It's the first thing learned, but never mastered - by anyone.
The DRS rewards practice . . .
Posted by jofjonesboro
10/31/2008  6:10:00 PM
and keeps dancing students where they belong - on the dance floor.

The frustrations of such deceptively simple moves and the feeling of accomplishment when you realize that you've mastered them are one of dances great rewards (in addition to improved health and a better social life).

The double-reverse spin (DRS) is the first real obstacle of difficulty that most beginning (BTIM first-year) ballroom students must overcome to start genuinely feeling like a dancer. Requiring more attention than the student has yet encountered in all physical aspects of the move, the DRS forces the student to commit to dancing or given it up.

It is the Crucible of the Ballroom.



jj
Re: I see that you're in one of your 'moods' again
Posted by anymouse
10/31/2008  11:39:00 PM
"This statement is utter nonsense on its face. The DRS is a standard part of the bronze repertoire and no one competes in bronze without it."

Well, you are simply wrong. Many people compete bronze without the DRS.

One of the first things the dancer has to learn is that there's a big difference between what is allowed and what is ADVISABLE. The new dancer rushes out to do all the "hard" figures - but it's not until they learn to concentrate on doing a few things well that they actually begin to advance.

"Also, a couple's competition level is pretty much always going to be lower than their current level of study."

Yes.

One should be working on the DRS as well as heel turns in general and the drive from the standing heel that makes the prerequiste stable backwards walk possible. But by the time someone can execute the DRS at competition quality, chances are they do not fit into the community of bronze dancers any more. They might still be elgible to enter, but realistically they will be out of place competing against the others there.


"Really? Every competition which I've attended"

Well then you have not been attending the more rigorous amateur syllabus events, because most of those do not traditionally offer it. Perhaps you could list where you have seen bronze international foxtrot offered?
At USA Dance Qualifying events around the SE.
Posted by jofjonesboro
11/1/2008  12:02:00 AM
The same syllabus is danced at Nationals.

I see that we're in the midst of witnessing another fulsome display of your arrogance.

But by the time someone can execute the DRS at competition quality, chances are they do not fit into the community of bronze dancers any more

Where on earth do you get this garbage? From the voices in your head?

Most bronze students who work on it consistently will be able to perform a DRS in the Waltz competently within sixth months, and basic competence is the essential expectation of bronze-level dancing.

Most amateur competitions asked students who have danced for more than two years to enter Silver or above. It does not take anywhere near even one year to develop a presentable DRS.

It's probably a year for a good telemark.



jj

Re: At USA Dance Qualifying events around the SE.
Posted by anymouse
11/1/2008  12:45:00 AM
"The same syllabus is danced at Nationals."

Bronze international foxtrot is on the official syllabus, yes, but the dance is not offered at USA dance nationals or most of the more serious competitions in that system. See the results page at:

http://www.o2cm.com/results/event3.asp?event=usa08

Where you will see that the bronze standard offering is a two dance Waltz-Quickstep event only. If you pull the relevant rulebook as I previously suggested you will see that it is not recommended to offer the the international foxtrot at bronze, though it is not prohibited for a competition to do so.

"Most amateur competitions asked students who have danced for more than two years to enter Silver or above. It does not take anywhere near even one year to develop a presentable DRS."

You said "presentable" while I said "advantageous". You may feel the execution is less than embarrassing; I would probably disagree, but more important would point out that winning is based on doing what you can do best. There is no checklist of compulsory material to be completed.
Re: Bronze Waltz
Posted by terence2
11/1/2008  12:48:00 AM
I was not infering that F/T was included at Novice level.. but to say its not included in Bronze, period, is patently not true. There have been many 3 dance comps that have included it instead of tango at a Bronze level .

I doubt you are old enough ( maybe ?)
but Tango was considered a silver level dance and the Novice Div, was 3 dances at some stage .

My other point was towards DR spin, that its inclusion in that level is commonplace, but again, not necessarily at a One dance level and of course, at the discression of the coach. I personally have introduced it early on in the basic sequences where appropriate .

And, to whomever stated that the DR spin had been placed in Silver level .. by which Soc. ?.. you said Major... I belong 2 of them and its not been changed in them ( unless I wasnt notified )
Re: Bronze Waltz
Posted by SocialDancer
11/1/2008  3:32:00 AM
"And, to whomever stated that the DR spin had been placed in Silver level .. by which Soc. ?"

IDTA

I think that counts as a major society, and AFAIK the DRS has always been in their Member/Licentiate syllabus.
Re: Bronze Waltz
Posted by Telemark
11/1/2008  4:12:00 AM
Of course the IDTA is a major society, but no individual dance figures have been specified in its amateur syllabus since 2006.

DRS is the first figure listed for study in the professional Licentiate syllabus (ie it is not studied at Associate level), but that is not quite the same thing, is it?
Re: Bronze Waltz
Posted by terence2
11/1/2008  4:25:00 AM
To which i am a member.. however, the "yardstick " for majority of comps in the States, and several other Soc. for e.g has always been the ISTD ( of late, there are newcomers which may differ ) and in rev. techn. it is included in what is essentially a "Bronze " syllabus in its step list, under the psuedonym of Assoc.
The dividing line for " novice " is clearly defined to my mind, by the wording " Student teacher " .

If we are to define the 2nd level as Silver, it then increases the step count in Standard figures ( normally accepted as a dividing line ) and places it into a new sphere .

The DR is also suggested as a " Follow " from a basic Rev. turn at Assoc. level for e.g. making no distinction in " levels " .



You may argue about degree of difficulty, and that is not in contention ; its more about its "purpose ", and ,it is also being included in Q/ Step at the same level.

The bottom line, as in all variations, we , as teachers, should, and do, by and large, take into account the capabilties of the student before introduction of ANY new variation, and having included this figure on more occasions than I care to remember at a lower level, it makes a "pathway " for all the heel turns that are inevitably going to appear.
Re: Bronze Waltz
Posted by SocialDancer
11/1/2008  5:30:00 AM
"DRS is the first figure listed for study in the professional Licentiate syllabus (ie it is not studied at Associate level), but that is not quite the same thing, is it?"

It used to be. There was originally a correlation between associate/member/fellow and bronze/silver/gold.
As you say the 2006 syllabus appears to have replaced all that with "Every care should be taken to employ only those figures which suit the candidate and can be performed with ease".

On a similar tack, what is a telemark doing in a bronze routine? Even the ISTD lists that at Licentiate level.
You can only point to the most recent events for t
Posted by jofjonesboro
11/1/2008  7:11:00 AM
USA Dance changes it competitive schedule every few years. A year or so ago, Tango was not part of the Silver syllabus and now some competitions are putting it back there.

If you read further in the USA Dance rulebook, you'll see the following stipulation.


Closed or Open Championships

Gold, Silver and/or Bronze events must be offered in at least four of the following pairs of
dances. The dances in each pair may be offered either separately or combined into a two-dance
event. The dance pairs are: International Waltz and Quickstep, International Tango and
Foxtrot, International Cha-Cha and Rumba, International Samba and Jive, American Smooth
Waltz and Foxtrot, American Smooth Tango and Viennese Waltz, American Rhythm Cha-Cha
and Rumba, and American Rhythm Swing and Mambo.




jj
your claim is absurd, its been this way for ages
Posted by anymouse
11/1/2008  9:49:00 AM
"USA Dance changes it competitive schedule every few years. A year or so ago, Tango was not part of the Silver syllabus and now some competitions are putting it back there."

Tango has often been part of silver for years.

"If you read further in the USA Dance rulebook, you'll see the following stipulation.

Closed or Open Championships

Gold, Silver and/or Bronze events must be offered in at least four of the following pairs of
dances. The dances in each pair may be offered either separately or combined into a two-dance
event. The dance pairs are: International Waltz and Quickstep, International Tango and
Foxtrot, International Cha-Cha and Rumba, International Samba and Jive, American Smooth
Waltz and Foxtrot, American Smooth Tango and Viennese Waltz, American Rhythm Cha-Cha
and Rumba, and American Rhythm Swing and Mambo."

Note that the "four" refers "pairs", not to four dances. In other words, this is satisfied by offering a two dance event for each of standard, latin, smooth, and rhythm for each level.

The omission of bronze foxtrot is a reflection of the expected path of progress in the sanctioning body's impression of how dancing works. Their impressions are usually not perfectly accurate (they are volunteers, not dance experts) but are not inaccurate in this case. I would guess it will continue to be left out of their national championship - and that you'll continue to see a lot of faked heel turns and too-early weight changes in the silver version.
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