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Judging Well Put
Posted by Three Wise Men
10/27/2009  1:29:00 PM
This is a quote.
Judges who mark couples 4 to 5 places higher or lower from the majority of other judges. Obviously are using other methods to judge dancing.
Many dancers believe that some judges prferentially reward dancers on the bases that they contribute to the judges income.
Nicely put dont you think.
This has been going on now for longer than most of you have been alive. But today with modern technoligy (internet and the like) we can see results almost as they happen and get a print out of the marks. It is my belief that judges like the above mentioned are killing competition dancing. Does anybody else think along those lines.
Re: Judging Well Put
Posted by terence2
10/27/2009  11:38:00 PM
Being an adjudicator for many yrs, I can assure you, in todays dance world, if the "practice " continues, there would be some sanctions enforced to address the problem .

ALL records of markings are sent to the Council, and may be checked to see if this practice was prevalent in past employment.

And yes, it did go on in the past ( and I,m sure does to some extent now ).

My marks are supposed to reflect my impression on a fair and evaluated basis, and I have always marked accordingly..
Re: Judging Well Put
Posted by Three Wise Men
10/28/2009  5:32:00 PM
Terence. Just to get the record straight you wrote If the practice continues there would be some sanctions enforced to address the problem.
I noticed you didn`t write will be enforced.
I haven`t seen an IDSF competition on the TV for a couple of years where the veiwer see the marks from each judge at the end of each dance. I have several on tape and belive me there are some very debatable scoring like 1st across the board except for this one judge who gave them a 4th place.
I suppose you remember the debacle in the 2002 Ice Olympic Pair Skating where the gold Medal was re awarded the next morning after is was found out that one of the judges had been got at.
I`ll carry on a bit here. Dancers quite dancing because of this. Somebody might say but that seems to be self destructive. The dancers leave. Thats right but in a flash another takes their place and the teacher come adjudicator carries on as usuall.
The answer to this must come from the dancers.
This is what happened in Europe a few years ago over a dispute when all the Lain dancers took to the floor without a number on their back as a protest and danced a sequence Rumba in which they changes partners every eight bars.
Unless something like this is done the present system will go on forever.
This subject is at present being debated on Dancesport UK.
Re: Judging Well Put
Posted by terence2
10/28/2009  11:30:00 PM
Sanctions are normally done in Private, and they DO happen.. it may result in not getting asked to adjudicate at future events..

As to mark displaying, as in Ice dance, that system was tried and then dropped..I would not have a problem using that system, and it may come about one day.. remember..old habits die hard .

In the final analysis, Judging is simply someones opinion, and their impression on whether or not they like or dislike what is being presented, and comparing it to the other contestants , in a very short time period .. Finals are easier .. rounds are much more difficult ( volume )
Re: Judging Well Put
Posted by Thre Wise Men
10/29/2009  2:18:00 PM
Trence. If the present system is allowed to carry on, as it has in the past, in the future a judge not yet born will be marking their owm pupils also not yet born. There as been a suggestion that a judge must circle the name on their card if that pupil they are marking is one of their own. That might make it slightly more honest. Personaly I think that to make an example of just one judge might let all others know what might be on the cards for they. I think the message is clear.
Re: Judging Well Put
Posted by Iluv2Dance
10/30/2009  12:49:00 AM
Hi to all,
Many, many years ago, it was on one of my first judging engagements, when I was asked who was my winner by a well-known fellow adjudicator. This happened straight after the semi-final of the main competition. I said I had not quite made up my mind - I was thinking you only decided who was the winner in the final. I was told that I think you will find your winner is number ##. During the final I gave this couple 3 firsts and a third. Third place was the position I thought they were.

Nothing was said to me when we left the floor after the final. The results of the competition was given in reverse order. The couple who I had marked to win came fourth. I looked at my fellow judge who just stared straight ahead.

I managed to see the marks and this particular judge gave seconds and thirds. Looking back, this judge could not be accused of marking his own pupils.
Re: Judging Well Put
Posted by terence2
10/30/2009  5:50:00 AM
I too have experienced some anomolies in the past, which I cannot even put in print !...

Bottom line is.. its a human experience..
Re: Judging Well Put
Posted by Cyd
10/30/2009  3:11:00 PM
Terence. Both you and luv2Dance would have experienced this,that the organizer of the comp has told you in no uncertain manner who they expect to win. Don`t comply then next time you wont be invited to judge.
I was told of a lady judge who was in great demand as a judge. She did exactly what she was told. So she was assured of plenty of work. Where her bias judging showed up was in another comp , different organizer, same couples. this time her first placings didn`t add up when compared to the last competition.
There has to be a solution.
One way could be that no judge knows which events they will be judging. Let them be picked on the day by a number dropping from a globe.
Does anybody have any better ideas than leaving it to gravity to choose the judging panel..
When our Dance Sport was first formed, I believe it is still in the rules. A judge is supposed to withdraw if any of their couples are on the floor. That is an absolute joke. That recomendation didn`t last five minutes.
Re: Judging Well Put
Posted by Clary
10/30/2009  2:58:00 PM
It's a small world and many coaches/judges are very popular and sought after for their coaching expertise. So, if your suggestion were put into place, I can picture some finals in which more than one judge would have to circle the names of ALL the couples on the floor! So, what then? Would the judges have to fill in blanks on the scoresheets as to how many lessons they gave to each couple in the previous month/year? And then, someone has to sift through and evaluate all that information; and then someone else has to evaluate the initial sifter to make sure that the initial sifter is tabulating the information honestly and isn't being "bought off"; and then the cost of competitions goes up becuase so many administrative roles have to be paid for . . . .
Re: Judging Well Put
Posted by Cyd.
11/1/2009  2:05:00 PM
Clary. I would ask you this. If you entered yor baby in into a baby show and you found out that one of the judges had their own child also entered
what would your reaction be. You can if you like sustitute baby for a flower show or a cookery contest.
As one guy on the UK site wrote. We must keep drawing attention to the unfairness of the present system which does nothing to stop what is literally dishonest where someone is in reality buy their marks..Surely it is not too much to insist that if a judge has any person on the floor who has had lessons within one year of the competion must remove themself from the judging panel. Or Clary do you think the present system gives us a fair results.
Re: Judging Well Put
Posted by Clary
11/1/2009  6:57:00 PM
First, life isn't fair. I'm not saying that people shouldn't strive to improve situations that might not be fair, but in the end true fairness likely won't be achieved.
Second, and more to the topic at hand - judges are not given a set criteria upon which to judge ballroom dancers. I've never seen any set criteria that says they must base 25% of a mark on footwork and 35% on frame and 15% on floorcraft, etc. So maybe that's a place to start. If judges have a set criteria it's somewhat more objective to see if the judges are actually basing marks on that.
Third, I've seen a particular judge who has a personal grudge against a certain couple. The judge NEVER marks them into a final, and the judge ALWAYS marks them last when the couple makes the final. Despite that judge's marks, the couple has still won events when that judge is on a panel. So, ONE judge's marks shouldn't make or break a result. That's one reason why there are several judges on a panel.
Fourth, I don't believe that EVERY judge who has a student in an event is automatically a corrupt judge. And, even if there is a corrupt judge it may not have to do with money/lessons - it may be something else that's affecting the marking of that judge. So tracking judges based on money might be a red herring.
I saw an event where a wife was on the judging panel when her husband was dancing in the event - and her marks put him in the bottom of the pack, which is where he wound up in the end. Should she have been on the panel? Of course not; but there it was. And seemingly, she didn't give him favorable treatment. Also, there were two other judges on the panel who I know had given coaching lessons to every single couple in the final. This was a small competition and if the organizer knocked three judges off of the panel, there weren't other judges on hand to fill in. If there were dancers who didn't like it, they didn't make a formal objection. Maybe next year they will quietly not attend that particular competition anymore.
So - in the grand scheme of things, maybe there's a judge who is marking a couple poorly or well for one reason, but then another judge marks a different couple poorly or well for other reasons. It probably all "comes out in the wash" in the long run.
There are unfair umpire calls in baseball and unfair referee calls in basketball - by supposedly impartial umpires and referees who don't coach the players. Why do they make unfair calls?
Are there unfair marks in ballroom dancing too? Sure. And if I see someone breaking a rule and if I can show chapter and verse of the criteria being broken, yeah, I'll raise an objection. But it's easy for a judge to justify a subjective mark when there are no set criteria.
So, after all of my rambling reply, in the overall scheme of things, there are other battles that I'm more willing to give my attention too.
Re: Judging Well Put
Posted by belleofyourball
11/1/2009  11:01:00 PM
The 'coaching'that Clary is discssuing is one of the things I have a real problem with.

The week before any large comp. is like a who's who of the ballroom judging world at my studio. I have so far refused to take part and I do win at comps over some of the competitors that I know are taking these lessons. Thus far I haven't seen it determining winners and a lot of the judging is where it should be. It still leaves a huge moral morass. It feels wrong and has the potential to go very wrong and I imagine it has influenced more than one outcome. Dual role relationships aren't best practice in any profession. Something does need to be done.
Re: Judging Well Put
Posted by Cyd
11/2/2009  4:54:00 AM
Words Words and more Words when the solution is so simple. NO JUDGE WILL JUDGE ANY PERSON OR COUPLE WHO THEY ARE TEACHING OR HAVING TAUGHT ON A TIME FRAME TO BE DECIDED ON. I think one year would be reasonable.
Heres one for you. A friend of mine received a phone call six weks before the event and was told you will not reach the final this year. And he didn`t. He had stopped having lessons some few weeks before..
If you analize this. When he was having lessons and winning will he ever know if he was as good as the positions he was getting.
Re: Judging Well Put
Posted by terence2
11/2/2009  9:56:00 AM
Do you realise, that if that rule was in effect, there would be no world class judges available for world class events ?...

Most top competing prof. and Amat. take from a variety of top class coaches who are pretty much all involved in championship events ( some judges may have 4/5 couples in any given event, and other judges the same in the SAME event )

Re: Judging Well Put
Posted by Cyd
11/2/2009  1:37:00 PM
Terence. What you say is true but that doesn`t make it less corrupt does it. The system is all wrong. In Ice Skating are any of the judges teachers of the people they are judging. Tennis Umpires. Are any of the umpires coaches of the players on the court. Could you imagine that in the final of the USA titles the Umpire has a pupil on the court. I know. There are lines people on the court. But the final say belongs to the Umpire.
When you wrote you were thinking of a top competition. I say again at any level it should be stated clearly that no judge be allowed to judge their own pupils.
Have you ever struck the situation where where not one from a certain school entered because the principal wasn`t invited to be one of the judges.
He Black Balled the competition.
I wonder if we will ever get to the stage and come right out into the open, where a comp is advertised as judges can judge their own pupils.
Terence It is usless to try to defend. Its rotten to the core.
You could probably quote a few instances were in the Adjudicators Room it came to, or near to, fisticuffs.
Shall i go on. A professional told me that this certain lady had a reputation for marking her own pupils. It has gone on for years and will continue. She will never judge a major competition. In my opinion she shouldn`t be judging at all at any level. Its going to be a bit awkward answering this. You are forgiven if you dont. Its not possible to defend the undefendable. So why try.
By the bye. In a second hand shop I came across a Joe Loss LP. On the cover in a Ballroom pose is Ted Donaldson and Eve Barnett and Dennis Udell and Joyce Brampton. Both couples became British Champions.
Re: Judging Well Put
Posted by Clary
11/2/2009  8:10:00 PM
I'm not sure that comparing tennis championships to dance championships in terms of the availability of "non-biased" judges. What is the purse for the winner at Wimbledon? What is the purse for the winner at Blackpool? There is a LOT more money involved in tennis that allows for umpires who do nothing but umpire, and coaches who do nothing but coach. In the ballroom world? Don't think so.
(Oh - and maybe someone like John McEnroe would have some comments on whether "unbiased" "unbought" umpires/judges called his lines fairly all the time.)
But at a small dance competition - disqualifying all the judges doesn't seem to be a great answer.
Re: Judging Well Put
Posted by terence2
11/2/2009  10:54:00 PM
For your premise to work, it would take the collusion of NINE judges to affect a result ( smaller comps would work under the same premise )..

yes, I do realise that in "local " in house events, things are not always what they seem to be..
Re: Judging Well Put
Posted by Iluv2Dance
11/3/2009  10:13:00 PM
I believe that should be, Eric and Edna,
Re: Judging Well Put
Posted by Clary
11/2/2009  10:01:00 AM
Scenario - SMALL competition: 7 judges total available at competition. Three couples on the floor have taken coaching lessons with ALL 7 judges among them. So, under your proposed rule ALL 7 judges are to be recused. Who judges?
I don't find that so simple to resolve. But I'm interested in hearing ideas.
Re: Judging Well Put
Posted by Three Wise Men
11/3/2009  12:45:00 AM
Clary.If the rule was made that no judge will be allowed to judge their own pupils. Then they would have to make up their mind wether they want to be a teacher or a judge.
I dont think some of you guys know what goes on. One of the top coaches when it was made known he would be judging. Within a few hours he hadn`t got one available hour left on his calender. When he said that he would be available, but only after the next competition . The responses was the same every time. I`ll get back to you later..
The best one I ever heard was a judge who marked a couple who wasn`t there. They hadn`t turned up even though they were numbered in the program. Unlike Blackpool where the judges have a card with each competitor numbered in that heat. Here we do not. The judges have a blank card. So this guy popped the number they would have had down on his card Just for your information out of say nine judges to get through to the next round three ticks would probably be enough.
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