Marcus Hilton would of course do the 'English version@ Nothing wrong with it - especially, as i said, when done very well, as of course it is in his case.
Anyone seen Gozzoli doing it? I must look.
Anonymous - wouldn't it be the case that, in a sway, the shoulders should be kept in the correct position relative to the top of the spine? This would mean they would slope slightly.
I agree about not collapsing. I owned up to this in my previous posting, but i'm working on it!! (it's just a habit picked up when i was learning )Extend up and project.....(don't hit the light fittings though)

We still come to what is Sway. Watching the fore mentioned tape. On step two of the Natural we have Sway definitely. The whole of the body is on an incline. Nobody would say that isn't Sway. Then on another step we have just the slightest incline one way or the other which can be seen at the shoulders level. Is that Sway. Compare the two on 4 5 of a Natural Spin Turn. Which is the one you can't possibly do. The one you can't possibly do is as step two of a Natural.
The point is. Don't think of a perfectly natural movement of the top line as being Sway. It is simply to get from one position to another. In other words we do what comes naturally. What we don't do is over emphasise, turning something that isn't a sway, and turning it into a mess. Mess meaning an out of balanced body or a misshaped ugly top line that will get you no marks. Does that make sense.
It might be worth taking a look at the Foxtrot video from last years Blackpool. Timothy Howson uses more sway than Mirko Gozzoli. Jonathon Crosssley on that Fallaway you will see a movement of the shoulders. What we can see up to the lead up is very subdued Sway. Chris Hawkins on his Wave has far less Sway than Timothy Howson. Keep an eye on those shoulders. In his swivell, nobody would call that Sway. I wonder what you misguided sway merchants would be doing

"I wonder what you misguided sway merchants would be doing"

Quickstep, you know your irresponsability with the facts is just atrocious.

For starters, you are ALL WRONG about Hilton's use of sway. I'm looking at Marcus Hilton on a superstars video, where he does a spin turn and turning lock to left. You had better believe he has OBVIOUS, right sway on the spin turn, just as Jonthan and I suggested was the usual practice. And then on the turning lock (to LEFT), he sways to the left.

In fact, Hilton has MORE sway on that spin turn that he does on some of his naturals, many of which he chose in that particular dance to perform in a very vertical non-sway manner.

So you agree that there is no Sway to the mans right. which was the main point of the discussion on a Turning Lock. And is the slight incline of the shoulders called Sway. If it is what do you call the second step of a Natural.... Sway involves the whole of the side from tip to toe. A slight incline of the shoulder is not.
Whilst we are getting technical The 1st step of a Spin Turn is a Pivot .The Spin is on the 5th step. In the book .There is no sway on a Natural Spin Turn after the first three steps of the Natural.
So we have. Amount of Turn. On steps 1 to 3 make three eighths of a turn. Half a turn on step four. And 3/8ths of a turn between steps 5 ans 6.
Body Sway. To the right on 2 and 3. No Sway on the actuall Spin.
I looked at Ballroom Figures 2 once again. There is no sway on the 4 5 6 of the Spin Turn. Or an Outside Spin . Or in Natural Pivots. Or on a Turning Lock.
The only thing I can think is you have been watching an exhibition . As any Professional will tell you that in a Demonstration they do things they wouldn't dream of doing in a competition. That includes the content. Every thing I have with Marcus Hilton he keeps very erect with that magnificent top line. I doubt that he does any different wherever he dances.
I've just had a look at a tape with Marcus Hilton the 1995 World Dance Festival. His Spin Turn is exactly as it is on the Ballroom Competitions Figures 2. Not a suggestion of a Sway in the Spin Turn.

Hi Quickstep
Have you studied anyone other than Hilton? Any top italian dancers, for example.
Hilton would dance the 'classical' English style.
I'm afraid i won't be here for a week. So have fun everyone and try not to miss me too much

"So you agree that there is no Sway to the mans right. which was the main point of the discussion on a Turning Lock."

I DO NOT AGREE! There is nothing in my message to support such a conclusion.

I commented that Hilton used sway to the left in a turning lock to left. In a turning lock to right I would guess he often uses sway to the right at the beginning, just like most others.

"And is the slight incline of the shoulders called Sway."

I'm not talking about an incline of the shoulders (though that happens in this case), I am talking about a BODY sway.

"Sway involves the whole of the side from tip to toe."

Which is what Hilton did. Moreso in his spin turn actually, than in a number of his naturals, some of which he chose to make very upright rather than swingy, as that suited their application in this case.

"Whilst we are getting technical The 1st step of a Spin Turn is a Pivot."

Not usually. I know what you are reading, but the fact is it's not quite a full pivot even in the book, and it's very rarely danced as any sort of pivot at all. It only tends to be done as a pivot by new beginners, or by advanced dancers when very underturned or as part of a SERIES of pivots.

"The Spin is on the 5th step. In the book .There is no sway on a Natural Spin Turn after the first three steps of the Natural."

Nonethless, the majority of serious competitors make frequent use of sway there. This is the differnce between what you learn if you have only books and watered down teaching videos as a guide, vs. if you are out there in the real world as an active dancer, watching and studying with the best teachers. Which you plainly aren't.

"I looked at Ballroom Figures 2 once again."

I have a strong suspicion that teaching tapes are often watered down to make them "safe" for all audiences. Karen Hilton you might recall took a lot of criticism for a rather unorthadox explanation of heel turns in a lecture. Would not suprise me at all if they made videos hewing to the orthadox line, without the full some-experience-required details of what they themselves dance or teach their non-beginner students.

"There is no sway on the 4 5 6 of the Spin Turn. Or an Outside Spin . Or in Natural Pivots. Or on a Turning Lock."

Well, there isn't any if you insist on dancing like a beginner for the entirity of your life, a decision you've clearly made for yourself. The rest of us are interested in learning about these things called nuances and application specific details.

"Every thing I have with Marcus Hilton he keeps very erect with that magnificent top line. I doubt that he does any different wherever he dances."

Actually, I saw marked application-appropriate contrast within a single waltz! Some of what are normally swing figures like the 123 of natural turn were at times quite vertical with minimal sway, because they were preceding some very stand-up-vertical type pivots and thus matched that character of action. On the other hand, he did things that might to a beginner be purely vertical (like the spin turn) with noticeable swing and thus sway, because that's a far more efffective way to dance them when your goal is to flow down the floor, rather than to spin from foot to foot. Contrasting ideas within one single dance... my, what will they think of next?

Lets find out what is shaping and what is swaying. Remembering the man keeps that unbroken line so the lady can shape off it. If you are doing Australian New Vogue or American Smooth you would be doing many Shapes and Sways as a man that shouldn't be in Modern Ballroom. I've heard it said that if you wrere driving a car behind a New Voguer you will always know which way they are going to turn because they let their head lean in the direction they are going first. I know nothing about Smooth but any dance that has solo turns this is not unusual. Do it enough times and it could creep into your modern. And it does. To go back to the top. what is the difference between Shaping to the left and Swaying to the left. At what point would Shaping become Sway.

Quickstep:

"Lets find out what is shaping and what is swaying."

The spin turn as usually danced by non-beginner incorportates functional sway, which is to say sway that occurs as a result of BODY SWING.

"shape" sway occurs when the position is not coupled to the dynamics of movement, occuring instead for purely expressive purposes - ie, as part of a picture line.

The reason most serious dancers use sway in their spin turn is because they are using SWING to allow the figure to flow. They aren't doing it because they think it makes a pretty shape, instead it is occuring as a result of the way that they produce their movement.

Anna:

"This is how we are taught the Turning Lock finishing in Promemade.
At the end of the Spin Turn the man finishes facing against the LOD and holding that position extends his right leg behind without turning pointing the toe diagnal to the centre."

This is wrong - in conflict with both the book and with the practice of leading teachers.

As you finish the spin turn part, you should be in an oversway like position before the man's right foot moves back. When it does move back, it should go directly down the LOD, not pointing to DC as you implied. It's not until the second step that the the gradual rotation of the body will be reflected in a changed foot alignment. Note that the book EXPLICILTY GIVES RIGHT SWAY for the first two steps of the lock!

"I think you will find that done this way the turning is over the Lock."

It should be over the lock - but you had started it a step early and left out the sway.

Incidentally: those with an irrational fear of sway should also look up the turning lock to L in their books: Sway to the LEFT on the first two steps!

Anonymous. I think it would be better if you put any quoting as Jack said. The way you have written in several cases I have took the quote as being your thoughts. It needs to be definately put that this is what Jack said to save any confussion.
Also I would ask this question. If a man on a Turning Lock sways to the right. Won't that put the weight onto the right foot which if you watch Marcus does move. 1. and (2Move) 3. If I stand on it how can i move it. I think you may have it wrong there. I think our Italian friends if they do Sway will do it after the foot is in place and the Lock is completed.
The reason for the toe to point diagnal to the centre is so it has no further turn. it is in a perfect position for the Promenade.
Watch the feet to see if the Sway is after the right foot is in place, and is used to go into Promenade

Sway on 5-6 Spin Turn. I can see now why that forbidden sway has crept in. They are coming off a flat RF which will incline the body to the right. When stepping to the side ever since the first book was written by Victor Silvester in 1928 a step to the side should be from a toe to a toe not a flat foot to a toe. Because as the moving foot passes the standing foot the heel leaves the floor.That is basic technique. It also puts paid to the swing which does nothing for the step. Where did that come from anyway. This is Waltz.... Use this method in the Spin Turn Quickstep. You will get a more dynamic movement. In the Quickstep it is not as drawn out, or rather spread out, as it has been allowed in recent years.. I wish people would stop trying to rewrite the technique books. What next a cartwheel.