Lets find out what is shaping and what is swaying. Remembering the man keeps that unbroken line so the lady can shape off it. If you are doing Australian New Vogue or American Smooth you would be doing many Shapes and Sways as a man that shouldn't be in Modern Ballroom. I've heard it said that if you wrere driving a car behind a New Voguer you will always know which way they are going to turn because they let their head lean in the direction they are going first. I know nothing about Smooth but any dance that has solo turns this is not unusual. Do it enough times and it could creep into your modern. And it does. To go back to the top. what is the difference between Shaping to the left and Swaying to the left. At what point would Shaping become Sway.

Quickstep:

"Lets find out what is shaping and what is swaying."

The spin turn as usually danced by non-beginner incorportates functional sway, which is to say sway that occurs as a result of BODY SWING.

"shape" sway occurs when the position is not coupled to the dynamics of movement, occuring instead for purely expressive purposes - ie, as part of a picture line.

The reason most serious dancers use sway in their spin turn is because they are using SWING to allow the figure to flow. They aren't doing it because they think it makes a pretty shape, instead it is occuring as a result of the way that they produce their movement.

Anna:

"This is how we are taught the Turning Lock finishing in Promemade.
At the end of the Spin Turn the man finishes facing against the LOD and holding that position extends his right leg behind without turning pointing the toe diagnal to the centre."

This is wrong - in conflict with both the book and with the practice of leading teachers.

As you finish the spin turn part, you should be in an oversway like position before the man's right foot moves back. When it does move back, it should go directly down the LOD, not pointing to DC as you implied. It's not until the second step that the the gradual rotation of the body will be reflected in a changed foot alignment. Note that the book EXPLICILTY GIVES RIGHT SWAY for the first two steps of the lock!

"I think you will find that done this way the turning is over the Lock."

It should be over the lock - but you had started it a step early and left out the sway.

Incidentally: those with an irrational fear of sway should also look up the turning lock to L in their books: Sway to the LEFT on the first two steps!

Anonymous. I think it would be better if you put any quoting as Jack said. The way you have written in several cases I have took the quote as being your thoughts. It needs to be definately put that this is what Jack said to save any confussion.
Also I would ask this question. If a man on a Turning Lock sways to the right. Won't that put the weight onto the right foot which if you watch Marcus does move. 1. and (2Move) 3. If I stand on it how can i move it. I think you may have it wrong there. I think our Italian friends if they do Sway will do it after the foot is in place and the Lock is completed.
The reason for the toe to point diagnal to the centre is so it has no further turn. it is in a perfect position for the Promenade.
Watch the feet to see if the Sway is after the right foot is in place, and is used to go into Promenade

Sway on 5-6 Spin Turn. I can see now why that forbidden sway has crept in. They are coming off a flat RF which will incline the body to the right. When stepping to the side ever since the first book was written by Victor Silvester in 1928 a step to the side should be from a toe to a toe not a flat foot to a toe. Because as the moving foot passes the standing foot the heel leaves the floor.That is basic technique. It also puts paid to the swing which does nothing for the step. Where did that come from anyway. This is Waltz.... Use this method in the Spin Turn Quickstep. You will get a more dynamic movement. In the Quickstep it is not as drawn out, or rather spread out, as it has been allowed in recent years.. I wish people would stop trying to rewrite the technique books. What next a cartwheel.

"Sway on 5-6 Spin Turn. I can see now why that forbidden sway has crept in."

Take a lesson with real teacher, and you'll realize that so many things you consider "forbidden" are in fact near-unverisal practice amongst leading dancers. It all points back to your desperate need to get your nose out of that book and get yourself some real-world dance experience.

"They are coming off a flat RF which will incline the body to the right."

Actually the sway begins as they are arriving on the right foot, then grows as they move through it. And the foot is not flat - it articulates as the body passes over it. You do not "come off a flat foot" you come off of a ball of foot.

"When stepping to the side"

It's not a step to the side, it's an essentially forwards step 5 followed by a backwards and slightly side step 6. You keep trying to apply the description of a basic spin turn to the far more dynamic action danced by real dancer.

"Because as the moving foot passes the standing foot the heel leaves the floor.That is basic technique."

WRONG. It's pretty hard to do the "spin" on step 5 if your heel is still on the floor! The heel will OBVIOUSLY be up before the other foot passes the standing foot. (Think for a minute about the underturned case, in which the feet never pass at all... the standing heel still comes up to permit the spin!)

"It also puts paid to the swing which does nothing for the step."

You meant to say "which I do not yet understand how it contributes to the step". The issue is not the swing, the issue is your insistence on viewing everything through a beginner's eyes. The use of swing in the spin turn, rather than a pivoting action, is a key component to what lets the dance flow easily down the floor - you swing past your partner rather than go around each other on steps 5 and 6. The result is sway on the later steps. Get some real lessons, and you might learn about it.

You might start by reviewing Jonathan's comment from near the top of the thread:

"And here's another one: The Overturned Spin Turn to Turning Lock to R. It's not just a spin with straight rightward sway, however. Like the Lunge Roll, the sway starts kicking in mid-movement. Think of it as a smooth Lunge Roll with rise... The body is straight as you approach the RF, then sway begins once the weight begins transferring, and continues to increase as you move away from it and towards the next step. The rightward sway is then held through the beginning of the Turning Lock, straightening out between steps 2 & 3."

Not as I remember it. The question originally was something to the effect of, "Can you sway on spin or pivoting actions?", to which the answer is an unequivocal, "Yes, you CAN". You don't have to, but you certainly can, and seasoned professionals do it all the time.

The answer to these examples is exactly the same: The basic version has no sway, but there are brilliant examples of versions that do. In fact, you can take almost any basic version of any figure from bronze and dress it up in various ways: Change the sway, rise & fall, overrotate, underrotate, etc. Most competitive above-Gold standard figures are nothing more than elaborate developments of syllabus figures (some more elaborate than others).

A good example of a Lock Step with sway: Change the rhythm to SQ&Q. Sway right on the slow with a slight checking action. Then sway left on the Q&Q, with the lady opening her head.

An Outside Spin with leftward sway and lady's head open is a beautiful example I already gave. You'll often see this version following a Curved Feather or Hairpin (the latter which you will not find in the "gray book", so no doubt you will deny its existence), and is accented with a slight flick or spiral action of the man's right foot as the weight releases from it on 1.

According to this line of logic, all of the following figures are either "chaotic" or don't exist: the Throwaway Oversway, Right Lunge, Same-Foot Lunge, consecutive Pivots, Rudolf Ronde, Tumble Turn, Scatter Chasses, Spanish Drag... (I'd go on, but I only have 12 gigabytes of space remaining on this server).

The dance world's "chaos level" does not depend on some arbitrary publication. It obviously rules your world, but the rest of the dance world does not wait for it to be released in paperback. It's preposterous to think that dancing cannot develop without first being written down, published and copyrighted. Dance technique develops in the studios and competitions around the world, not by Simon & Schuster.

You are right about one thing, though... The ISTD is years overdue for an update on their "little gray book". Of course, if they were to update it to reflect every possible correct interpretation of every possible figure, the resulting series of books would rival Encyclopedia Britanica in pure physical weight.

Regards,
Jonathan

Aren't most of these sways you speak of for the lady, are actually shaping. She must do something to be able to turn the head from one way to the other. So she shapes. Surely the man keeps a frame that she can work off to inhance the shapes.
The Sway on a Natural. That is a Sway which both the man and the lady does at the same time.
I asked a Professional what in a Spin Turn step 4-5 would tempt a person to sway to the right. The answer was . They either have the wrong contact with their partner. Or just dont know how the Spin Turn is supposed to be done. Off balance they step out instead of a Pivot. This makes it a kind of imitation Spin Turn. I have a point here. If I am the type of person who will bend rules then I will do it elswere and everywhere. Then where will we be
To go back to the first part. Is the sway actually just a shaping we see from the lady.
Designed for one reason only and that is to attract attention on the competition floor and does next to nothing to assist balancing the movement.

"Aren't most of these sways you speak of for the lady, are actually shaping."

No. You already tried that question, and were already told that they aren't.

Try actually reading Jonathan's post and thinking about it.

"I asked a Professional..."

Either the person you asked doesn't know what they are doing, or far more likely, you didn't do a clear job of presenting the question. The kinds of stuff we are talking about here - movement coupled sway - are common knowledge amongst all serious dancers.

"To go back to the first part. Is the sway actually just a shaping we see from the lady."

No, just as in the natural turn it is a result of using swing to enhance the movement.


"If I am the type of person who will bend rules then I will do it elswere and everywhere. Then where will we be"

As a person who clearly lacks any real understanding of dancing, you are someone who must be controlled by extremely strict rules, interpreted quite literally. Fortunately, the rest of us enjoy more freedom - because we understanding the underlying principles, we can produce more characterstic dancing by following the spirit and intent, and not tripping over our misunderstandings as you so obviously do. Fundamentalists just don't get far... especially when they can't even understand their own holy book.

It's true that the spin turn is documented without sway... but wise use of sway can produce far more CHARACTERISTIC WALTZ than what is possible when you try to dance with unreasonbly rigid adherence to a written APPROXIMATION.

Sway is a nececary part of a turn, just like an aroplane, when it turns it sways. It is not there for enhancement but is necessity. Enhancement is a fringe benifit. Again what you are seeing is shaping to the left or shaping to the right. Although some of the less experienced ladies not only go to the right or the left but over the back also. None of them would quallify as sway. So you tell me what is sway in your oppinion

"Again what you are seeing is shaping to the left or shaping to the right."

Only in your imagination.

What I am seeing and doing is BODY SWING, WHICH RESULTS IN SWAY.