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Re: English 101 for dancers
Posted by anymouse
9/15/2008  1:16:00 PM
"Your question is a bit ambiguous. If by "result in CBMP" you mean that the step ends in CBMP then the answer is obviously "no." If, however, you mean that CBMP is approximated at some point during the movement then the answer would be "yes.""

If by approximated you mean "looks like" then I would agree:

CBM body turn looks a lot like CBMP (or conversely CBMP looks a lot like strong CBM has been used), but it isn't.

Except that a number of professionals (including Jonathan who runs this site) are of the opinion that CBM which takes you beyond being square does mean that CBMP has been achieved...

...which gets back to my point that the subject is one complicated enough to confuse even the professionals, and a more directly application-oriented explanation is appropriate for introducing it to beginners.
Re: English 101 for dancers
Posted by SocialDancer
9/15/2008  5:04:00 PM
"Can body turn (CBM) result in CBMP on that same step?"

Let's take as an example a step forward on the RF. A strong body turn to the right, accompanied by a natural turning of the trailing left foot, can result in a position where the RF is on or across the new line of the LF. If we had to name that overall position it would be reasonable to name it CBMP, and we would probably think of it as a 'body' position.

"Or does that conflict with the part of the definition of CBMP ("but without turning the body") that some were considering so critical?"

No, I don't think it conflicts with the definition of CBMP as a 'foot' position, where we are talking about achieving the same overall position by placing the foot relative to a body which has already turned.

In the first case we are turning _into a_ CBMP, and in the second we are stepping _in_ CBMP.

"If you believe this is possible, then what is the meaning of "but without turning the body" in the definition?"
"The text in question: ""The placing of the stepping foot, forward or back, onto or across the line of the other foot, giving the appearance of CBM having been used, but without turning the body.""

Unfortunately, the original author was not a very good writer, especially with regard to punctuation. The last comma is unnecessary and actually distorts the clarity of the phrase.!

Therefore, the last part of the text should read: ""giving the appearance of CBM having been used but without turning the body.""

Clearly - at least to myself - the author is trying to say that a dancer in CBMP appears to have just executed CBM except that the body is not turned."

I believe the phrase is almost redundant, with or without the comma (which I also believe is correct).
How would CBM appear without turning the body?

If the comma is correct, we can remove the phrase between the commas and get: "The placing of the stepping foot, forward or back, onto or across the line of the other foot but without turning the body."
We probably do not need the part about not turning the body - if it is not mentioned, don't do it.

However it may actually help clarify the definition, and definitions are notoriously difficult to make accurate, concise and unambiguous.

The simple definition without reference to turn or CBM is not sufficient.
In the absence of any pre-conceptions, a person asked to stand with their feet slightly apart, then to place their RF in front and in line with their LF will most likely turn the body slightly to the left. They will have met the requirements of the simple definition but are not, and have not stepped, in CBMP. Adding the comment about not turning the body will result in a just recognisable CBMP. Adding "giving the appearance of CBM having been used" makes it unmissable.

As far as the original poster is concerned, it is probably simplest to forget about CBMP until your teacher explains and demonstrates it. Just keep your body facing your partner.
Re: English 101 for dancers
Posted by anymouse
9/15/2008  6:17:00 PM
"The simple definition without reference to turn or CBM is not sufficient.
In the absence of any pre-conceptions, a person asked to stand with their feet slightly apart, then to place their RF in front and in line with their LF will most likely turn the body slightly to the left. "

I would guess, at least if they had any exposure to dance habits at all, they would be much more likely to turn their body to the right.

However the question itself is based on an unlikely premise: leaving aside the tango and a few unusual situations in the others, CBMP positions don't tend to come from nowhere, and they are not generally executed with the body square to the feet. Instead they are generally preceded by a same-side lead on the preceding step, which may be simply carried over without change to become an opposite side lead on the CBMP step.

In other words, CBMP features the result of body turn relative to the feet, but it's turn that happened sometime previously.

If this setup is satisfied, then the simple instruction to step across the body is likely to result in something approaching the desired result, at least to the degree to which the beginner is physically capable of finding comfort in a CBMP position.

"They will have met the requirements of the simple definition but are not, and have not stepped, in CBMP."

Nor in your example will they have stepped across their body as I had suggested we instruct them. I specifically did not choose to phrase it relative to the standing foot, because while the book is written that way, it's not how most people are used to thinking - instead of foot-relative, we tend to be body-relative. And while CBMP is defined with respect to the feet, the reasons for using it are mostly with regard to the body, or more exactly the fitting together of two bodies.
Re: English 101 for dancers
Posted by pasodoble
9/15/2008  8:54:00 PM
I would suggest that if you have access to the Congress Tapes from Blackpool this year. Your queries on CBMP are all answered .
On this site if you go to Learning Centre and find Direction Movement then click on CBMP
You will notice that the Foot is taken across the body. It is as straight as is possible to be.
It follows the straight line on the chart which is as straight as an arrow. That is CBMP
The writting going on between the two people is achieving nothing. A simple example of CBMP is after a Progressive Chasse in the Quickstep where a quarter turn to the left has been completed. The man's left shoulder is in position diag to wall.
The first step of the Lockstep is taken across the body in CBMP
That positin is held for the next three steps
If this is followed by a Natural Spin Turn the line will be maintained
The way i was taught on a Basic Quickstep was. A quarter of a Turn to the right followed by a quarter turn to the left on the Progessive Chasse.
Hold that line for the Lockstep which should be diag to wall as will be your next natural movement in CBMP.
A simple check that anyone can do is are you still together with your partner
Or have your bodies seperated creating a ugly line with two sets of hips exposed.
Step four of a Weave in the Waltz from an Open Impetus is another to watch.
You can include step three of a Open Reverse Turn as well.
Re: English 101 for dancers
Posted by jofjonesboro
9/16/2008  5:35:00 AM
This smells like another Don/Quickstep/serendipidy/Polished sockpuppet.

Frankly, I don't think that you know what you're writing about.

We all know that the outside-partner position is taken in CBMP. Other than that obvious point, you really haven't said anything.

Re: BlahBlahBlah BlahBlah
Posted by dheun
9/15/2008  11:10:00 AM
Hey jj, I think I owe you an apology. I thought you were attacking one of my responses in this thread, but upon further review, I think you were just continuing your exchange with anymouse and Telemark. So I knee-jerked by stating my original thought, that the original poster could have answered her question in this site's learning center. Still, I have found the exchanges on this particular question really interesting, and also makes me glad that my skill level and thirst for knowledge on dancing is such that I would probably never get too hung up on the difference between CBMP and CBM.
No reason to apologize.
Posted by jofjonesboro
9/15/2008  12:38:00 PM
It's not always possible to line up our responses as we intend.

Re: Abbreviation query
Posted by aussielad
9/16/2008  6:35:00 AM
Dear Esme Nielsen,
I have been following this thread since you first posted it, and would now like to offer my sincere apology for the behaviour of some of the respondents. Whilst I am sure that you have possibly now learnt the meaning of both CBMP and CBM.I hope the continued bickering between some of these "repliers" doesn't confuse you too much. Some of us like to practice the game of 'One-upmanship' to demonstrate how knowledgeable we are. I personally was under the impression that replies to queries on this forum were supposed to be directed to the original enquirer and not turned into a slanging match. Evidently, I was wrong.
Re: Abbreviation query
Posted by jofjonesboro
9/16/2008  6:36:00 AM
Don't ever presume to apologize for me or anyone else on this board.

Discussions produce disagreements. This is a public forum. If you're offended by the exchanges that take place then don't participate.

Re: Abbreviation query
Posted by pasodoble
9/17/2008  7:34:00 PM
Esme Nielsen. CBMP. If you can find an example of a Foxtrot on youtube by a top professional. You will see that on a Reverse Turn on step five the lady should be backing the wall and not backing diagnal to the wall. The man is the natural opposite
You can then see how step 6 with CBMP is performed. If the man turns too soon anti- clock you are not in CBMP. In fact there was no CBMP at all.
The person who wrote Keep your body facing your partner. would have been better if the had written . Keep your partner in front of you. Those are the words most used by professionals.
A much simpler way of showing CBMP to a beginner is to stand with the left hand ( right hand for the lady ) out to the side at arms length, palm facing the front which will be the wall in this case. Without moving the left side. Step across the body towards the palm of the left hand
CBMP is a foot position only because the side is already in position from the preceeding step. I hope this helps

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