"Anonymous. I think I remember that post. You were saying something about a flat walk and a walk with rise and fall. And I said I have never heard of it. "

Time you start thinking about it then!

"Body rise for the lady is never spoken about because she can't help but rise because of the swing on two and three plus the sway to her left by the man"

Time to start thinking about what happens when she lowers from this body rise! It will change her foot timing of course.

"You can't keep the knee bent and lower early. You would have to sit to do it that way."

Bingo! Lowering backwards usually has a limited component of "sitting down" to it. Of course you don't want to pull away from your partner.

"Also you will not be able to get into that split weight position correctly."

You aren't supposed to be in split weight... If you are still trying to do that, it explains why none of this technique is making any sense to you. Go ahead, keep shooting yourself in the foot!

"Also your toe will be looking skywards With a heal down and the knee flexed you will have to lift your hip to get the foot through."

No, with the knee flexed the toe and not the heel of the departed foot would be on the floor, and there is no need to lift the hip later to take it through. Obviuosly you haven't tried this yet.

"Do you or don't you beleive there is a collection point. Collection being when every thing is under the body still moving but under the body."

By that definition, no - because different parts pass through their neutral positions in space and/or rotation at a different points in time.

"Probably ready to flex the supporting knee and drive onto the next step even on an ordinary Change Step in the Waltz .After the first step. Or better still do a series of Change Steps.This is how it is being taught. Step bring the rear foot under the body . Flex the standing knee and drive onto step two.Going Baackwards the same except for the NFR on one.."

Crude, very approximate. Get some real lessons...

Anonymous.Do you ever practise Backward Walks. How can lowering the body possibly affect your timing.The stretching of the body is no big deal. If you can take the left LF back and lower the heel and keep it down flex the knee and extend the RF back to the toe, not the ball, but back to the toe. The ladies body rise will happen without even thinking about it. Add to that Sway, nothing more is required.
Whilst we are onto the extending to the toe. Lets think about going to the point of imbalance which you are always on about.If you were to on a Forward Step make sure that the rear toe is actually is a toe and not just a ball, and use it. All your problems would disapeare in an instant.
Split weight. Old book new book. As the RF passes the toe of the LF, the left heel will be released from the floor,so that at the full extent of the stride the ball of the LF and the heel of the RF will be touching the floor. In the actual walk the weight is first on the stationary foot. At the full extent of the stride it is divided for a moment between the heel of the front foot and the ball of the back foot.
In the book according to Anonymous. How will you rewrite the above.
In a rotation there will still be a neutral point.First three of a Natural will do.Failure to do this will mean the opportunity to able to flex the right knee will be lost and as Richard Gleave said the following step to the side wil be very ordinary. Which he aptly demonstrates.
On a Feather Step Foxtrot there is also a collection point after the third step on the count of 4 and. And being the collection point . Enough for now.

"Anonymous.Do you ever practise Backward Walks."

Daily. I also practice related actions that are modified by rise and fall - these are not the walks described in the book, but something different, and more related to actual dancing.

"How can lowering the body possibly affect your timing."

How can it not affect it???

When you are lowering, you are gaining movement energy, in both physical fact and artistic intent. You will have to reflect that in your actions or else look and feel very artificial. Failing to let the rise and fall modify your timing is one of the things that sets beginners apart - they try to isolate each element of their dancing from the others, and look very strained as a result. Wheras on a good dancer, everything is linked.

"The ladies body rise will happen without even thinking about it."

Sure. But it has implications on the foot timing. You may not need to think about those either - but if you are not yet incoprotating that in your dancing, then you will have to think about it until you start doing it right, at which point you will not need to think about it (except when discussing it with those still trying to figure it out).

"Lets think about going to the point of imbalance which you are always on about.If you were to on a Forward Step make sure that the rear toe is actually is a toe and not just a ball, and use it."

Don, when you first go into imbalance your feet are going to be fairly close together - this does not occur at the extreme of the stride as you are describing, but rather near the beginning of the step.

"Split weight. Old book new book. As the RF passes the toe of the LF, the left heel will be released from the floor,so that at the full extent of the stride the ball of the LF and the heel of the RF will be touching the floor. In the actual walk the weight is first on the stationary foot. At the full extent of the stride it is divided for a moment between the heel of the front foot and the ball of the back foot."

What you have just quotes is a description of an EXERCISE. It bears a lot of relations to what happens in DANCING, but it is not dancing - it is a PREPARATORY EXERCISE which is featureless. Dancing modified that exercise with variation in altitude and timing - which together mean body flight, and make split weight innaproriate.

But go ahead and do robotic exercises instead of dancing if that is what makes you happy.

"In a rotation there will still be a neutral point."

Depends what you are rotating from and what you are rotating to. In actual practice, many dance figures will not have a neutral point, but you won't learn about this until you start consulting with better teachers.

"First three of a Natural will do."

A natural turn will see you passing some body parts through rotational neutral in a way that a reverse turn won't. As I've repeatedly pointed out and you have repeatedly ignored, NATURAL AND REVERSE TURNS ARE NOT MIRROR IMAGES OF EACH OTHER.

Anonymous. The drive with the rear foot carries you onto the standing foot. If it isn't you are pulling yourself along with your front foot.
If correct lowering is simply an excercise then why is it in the book, old and new. They describe a walk forward and backward and that is how it should be done exactly as it is written.
I'm beginning to understand your mode of thinking.If the book is different to your understanding you come out with. It is an excercise. Or before ,untill you found out (through me, that there is a more recent publication ), the book is old and out of date and is old fashioned. So I will join you and say what you are being taught is just an excercise which is featureless and not worth doing.
If you were to do the classical Feather Step and Three Step. And you are to go to the point of imbalance and fall. On the above Feather and Three exactly, are you doing this on every step. That is sending your body in front of the foot to an imbalanced position and catching.
I would suggest you do your robotic style, instead of dancing correctly. But don't try to drag other people along your tortuous path. Wouldn't it be easier to say. Drive your centre which is your spine forward. Not just the hips but the whole of the spine.
One last thing. The step discribed in the books is the first step whether it be the Waltz or the Foxtrot going Back or Forwards. Both described under the heading of Forward and Backward Walks. Don't repeat that they are only an excercise. You'll make yourself look stupid. If they were the whole book is an excercise.

"The step discribed in the books is the first step whether it be the Waltz or the Foxtrot going Back or Forwards. Both described under the heading of Forward and Backward Walks. Don't repeat that they are only an excercise. You'll make yourself look stupid. If they were the whole book is an excercise."

Don, that right there is your fatal mistake.

What is described in the book is a WALK. It has no rise. It has no fall. It has no CBM.

Wheras the first step of most dance figures has all of these.

The WALK in the book is a PREPARATORY EXERCISE intended to serve as an introduction and drill to SOME of the necessary skills. Wheras the first step of a DANCE figure is something quite a bit more complicated.

As for the whole book being an exercise, to some extent that is true - it is only an approximation of dancing. However, the descriptions of the figures bear a lot more relation to dancing than the descriptions of featureless WALKS done with no evolution or rise or fall.

Mistaking the EXERCISE of the WALK for DANCING which it is not is what causes some of your flawed ideas of the details of action in rise and fall steps. They are DIFFERENT from no-rise walks.

"The step discribed in the books is the first step whether it be the Waltz or the Foxtrot going Back or Forwards. Both described under the heading of Forward and Backward Walks. Don't repeat that they are only an excercise. You'll make yourself look stupid. If they were the whole book is an excercise."

And given that the FOOTWORK IS GIVEN DIFFERENTLY you statement can be proven false.

The footwork of a forward WALK is given as H

The footwork of the rising step at the start of a foward walk or foxtrot action is given as HT

And that is precisely the sort of modification to a walk that has to happen when it becomes part of a dance figure.

Anonymous. Do I have to spell everything out for you or are trying to be awkward.
A Forward Walk on the RF then on the LF would be described as Heel. Heel. The fact that the whole of the RF lowers to the floor imediately is assumed, but not mentioned.It is also obvious that when the LF moves forward the heel of the RF will naturally leave the floor. as described in the Forward Walk of the man. Again this is assumed but not mentioned.
A Forward Step on the RF followed by a Forward Step or a Side Step on the LF, taken on the toe, would be given as 1.Heel Toe. 2. Toe. Reprinted By kind permission of Alex Moore.
You are a glutton for punishment . How could you possibly believe that the book is wrong. This instruction book as been read by counless millions of people over a hugh span of years. Now do you understand.
And Mr Nobody from nowhere thinks they know better.Enough said . The jury is out.

Don,

I don't know what you are trying to argue. It is quite obvious from the book that a foward action with rise rolls through the receiving foot faster than a forward walk without rise!

In fact, I guarantee that you cannot find any situation in dancing which exactly matches the forward or backward walk in the book. Or perhaps you want to prove that PT Barnum was right...

The forward walk bears about as much relationship to the first step of a waltz or foxtrot figure as you do to a monkey - which is to say, they are closely related, but they are by no means the same thing!

Anonymous. Haven't a clue what you are on about. If it is in the book then you are correct. If it isn't you are wrong. Just one step in the Waltz. Forward RF. Lower the toe to the floor. Bring the left foot to the RF flex the knee and then step to the side on the toe.If you are turning then turn about a quarter of a turn on the RF. If you are going Forward as you would on a Three Step with the two heel leads. Or after your Preperation step into a Feather, two heel leads. Step forward on the LF. RF moves under the body. Step Forward RF. LF moves under the body and then onto the first quick of the Feather Step on the toe .
Unless you are going to write your own book. I don't see anything to back you up in this one.Tell me what is it in the technique book you can't or don

"Anonymous. Haven't a clue what you are on about. If it is in the book then you are correct. If it isn't you are wrong."

Rather obvious proof that you are still a beginner! If you were a real dancer, taking lessons with an expert teacher, you would have a whole mental catalog of details which must be executed somewhat differently than in the book.

"Just one step in the Waltz. Forward RF. Lower the toe to the floor. Bring the left foot to the RF flex the knee and then step to the side on the toe.If you are turning then turn about a quarter of a turn on the RF. If you are going Forward as you would on a Three Step with the two heel leads. Or after your Preperation step into a Feather, two heel leads. Step forward on the LF. RF moves under the body. Step Forward RF. LF moves under the body and then onto the first quick of the Feather Step on the toe ."

You got some details wrong, but rather more importantly, YOU FORGOT THE UPSWING RISE. Waltz has swinging rise. The walks in the book do not.

"Unless you are going to write your own book. I don't see anything to back you up in this one.Tell me what is it in the technique book you can't or don"

Get yourself a real teacher and some day you might start learning to dance. Until then, you are a zealot with a bible, unable to face the reality of what real dancers do.