"If you can do that for eight sequences and confidently be in time and in phrase at the end without counting. Your a better person than i am."

Why is your counting any less likely to get off phrase than your dancing????

If you can't hear if you are on phrase, you won't be able to keep your DANCING or your COUNTING on phrase!

Why is your counting any less likely to get off phrase than your dancing.
Lets tell you what happens in our studio. Young and old alike have a turn of counting the timing for any particular group taught. The class dance, the nominated one dances and calls the timing to music. This is first done solo. If a mistake is made we do it again.
Also as we start the disk might already be playing. (You must have a tape where the teacher calls
5 6 7 8 ). We would never be allowed to start straight in . This is typical . I pick up the counting to myself 1234 5678 maybe again, then out loud 5678 to start the class on 1234. Is that clear. We have 12 year olds doing this. I dont think there are any here who can' t tell which part of an eight bar phrase is being played, whether it be the fourth or the eighth. Maybe it might be fortunate that we have a style here called New Vogue. In it if you are not very familiar with phrasing and timing it wouldn't be possible to dance. Even in the Social scene nobody would dance off beat or out of phrase or both.
Test. Try Tango 4/4. Two Walk. Link. Closed Promenade. Back Corte. If you dont stand still for two beats you can' t do a Reverse Turn on the correct beat. Try that without counting . Just for the record i and my partner never dance out of time. I am always aware of my steps and the beats being played. And I can also see imediately if any couple are out of time. Its called being trained correctly from the beginning.

"Why is your counting any less likely to get off phrase than your dancing.
Lets tell you what happens in our studio. Young and old alike have a turn of counting the timing for any particular group taught. The class dance, the nominated one dances and calls the timing to music. This is first done solo. If a mistake is made we do it again.
Also as we start the disk might already be playing. (You must have a tape where the teacher calls
5 6 7 8 ). We would never be allowed to start straight in . This is typical . I pick up the counting to myself 1234 5678 maybe again, then out loud 5678 to start the class on 1234. Is that clear. We have 12 year olds doing this."

And if you check back in a bit into general practice, you will typically find one or more dancing to their count - which is out of synch with the music! Counting gets you in that classic error of believing that something is so because your lips said it was. I say "one" so it must be one... WRONG.

"I dont think there are any here who can' t tell which part of an eight bar phrase is being played, whether it be the fourth or the eighth."

Fine, then there's no need to puts words on it. If you can hear it, you can dance it - and dance it with a lot more feeling when you let the music speak directly to your soul, and not get detoured through your verbal centers first.

"Test. Try Tango 4/4. Two Walk. Link. Closed Promenade. Back Corte. If you dont stand still for two beats you can' t do a Reverse Turn on the correct beat. Try that without counting ."

If it feels wrong to do the figure in the wrong place in the music, you don't do it there. No need to worry about the counting theory of why it's wrong - it feels wrong so it is wrong.

But something a more advanced dancer than you would instantly point out is that if you chance the emphasis of the figure, it's no longer wrong to dance it in that position on the music, because now you are dancing it in a way that matches the music. There is no "correct beat" for a reverse turn, there is only a correct place for a given way of interpreting a reverse turn.

"Just for the record i and my partner never dance out of time. I am always aware of my steps and the beats being played. And I can also see imediately if any couple are out of time. Its called being trained correctly from the beginning."

Demonstrably wrong, as you've just made a beginner-level false claim about what it means to be in our out of time!

I dont think you are rightin the head.Give me the timing of a Reverse Turn in the Foxtrot.
Tell me when the music stops and those beats stop playing do you keep dancing. Dont tell me that you have a blanket thrown over you.
Maybe you should dance to beat less music. That will solve your problem.Putting jokes aside i have met people who say they dont need to count. I have never met one who danced in time with the music. What their trouble really is they are not capable of hearing the beat beat beat of the tom tom. A few years ago there were some special tracks on a dance disk where the beats only were featured. That would mean you wouldn' t be able to move. I wonder why they did that.

Anna! Do you happen to know Quickstep? Or is Anna, Quickstep who has started to cross-dress?

I know a Quickstep better than you my my moronic friend.Just keep your remarks to yourself.

Hi Anna
We must meet up someday because i have no problem counting beats, or dancing WITHOUT counting beats and keeping on time. I'm sure i'm not the only one.
I want to ask a fundamental question.
Let's talk simple slow waltz. How do you start counting the beats without being able to hear beat 1 in the music. And if you can hear beat 1 in the music, why do you need to count when you dance?

It is because i can hear beat one that i count it. In a competition we always start after the four bar introduction. Never in it. Made that mistake once in the Rumba. After the introduction the beats altered. Had to stop and start again. A lesson was learnt there. Start counting imediately and dont start dancing untill you are sure of the music. I suppose being bitten once twice shy. I will pay particular attention to the music being played in other events assuming that mine will be the same. So i am prepared for fast or slow tempos or whatever. One of my teachers said. The way you count to yourself is the way you will dance any particular step. If you slide through your count one so shall you dance it. There we go Rhythm. Who was it that sang. I've got rhythm i got music who could ask for anything more. It would be about 1935

"It is because i can hear beat one that i count it."

Can you not also hear the other beats?

If not, I guess you'll need to count.

But mostly people can hear the whole thing, at least once they learn to LISTEN.

(you can listen better if you stop talking... which is to say, counting. You listen with your ears, not your lips)

"Who was it that sang. I've got rhythm i got music who could ask for anything more. It would be about 1935"

Quick quiz, what's the time signature? Bet you get it wrong. But that's okay, it doesn't really matter. What matters is that you hear the harmonic rhythm... and this is a very famous one, called "rhythm changes" and recycled as the basis for a gazilion other pieces, written or improvised. I assure you no one soloing over that harmonic rhythm counts it... that would totally kill hte musicality. Instead, they feel it, it's like riding a bicyle.

i don't think anyone would count aloud unless recomended in training. What that does if both are counting, which is an excercise. It will makes sure both parties are stepping at the same time. It should never be visibly showing whist in a contest
Since the first time man whacked a hollow log with a stick we have had music and with that would have come movement to the beat. They most likely couldn't count and yet they could. I think you can see what I am driving at. Stepping to a beat. Take the beat away and we have nothing to step to.