Well, you've gone and done it now, Clive. You've pissed off old serendipidy or Quickstep or Polished or whatever.

Be prepared to watch videos forever!

Of course, s/Q/P/w will have to tell you what you're seeing.



jj

Ha Ha! Videos for ever - did you notice that one of yesterday's masterful discourses had us able to identify the Tower at Blackpool (rather than the Winter Gardens, presumably), because of the position of the stage?

And there was me thinking that the title of the clip "Carol Haines Waltz Tower Ballroom Blackpool" rather gave it away.

Still, you couldn't have expected a mere social dancer to have noticed that unaided....

Astaire. There is no turn by the man on a Whisk. It's the lady that opens not the man. What you see is an illusion. Go to Learn The Dances and look read and record. Polished: why don't you check your facts before making such a statement. First there is no demonstration of the back whisk on the learning section. Second, they turn on version three of the Whisk. What rot you talk and have been talking for at least the last four years.

CliveHarrison. There is no turn for the man on a normal Whisk as you know.I dont know what Guy Howard has written on a Back Whisk I'll bet without seeing that he is absolutely correct on what he wrote. Which part is it you don't agree with.
Is it possible that some are including the step out into promenade as part of the Whisk which it is not. The lady has made the ordinary Whisk into a promenade position. Not the man.

The Back Whisk is described in both Moore and Howard.

Yes, there can be a turn on a Whisk; Jonathan and Melissa demonstrate as much in one of their videos.

From "Technique of Ballroom Dancing" (first edition), page 12: "The Whisk at a corner (man turning): the amount of turn will be 1/8 to L between 1 and 2 from facing DW to facing LOD, and 1/8 between 2 and 3 to face DW of new LOD."

Cheers.

jj

But there can be turn for the man on a whisk. As much or as little as you like. The man can turn, or the lady can, or both can.

How would you propose the man lead the lady to promenade position without any sort of rotation? If he has no rotation in any part of his body, she has no reason to turn herself to promenade.

Book technique describes rotation and alignments of the feet. And in the most basic version of the Whisk, indeed the man has to turn... of his feet. However, he must turn his upper body to the right, not only to lead the lady to promenade position, but also to put his own body in the correct position.

It may be an oversimplification to say that the upper body is turned exactly a full 1/8 off of the feet in promenade, but if you allow me the liberty, this is how I would describe it: In promenade, man's feet point diagonal wall, body faces wall. Lady's feet point diagonal center, body faces center.

So if we start in closed position with man facing and lady backing diagonal wall, his rotation would be none through the feet, and 1/8 to right through upper body. Her rotation would be 1/4 to right through feet, 1/8 to right through upper body. Again, this is somewhat oversimplified, but still more accurate than what the book describes.

Regards,
Jonathan Atkinson
www.ballroomdancers.com

Jonathan. If I take my first step Diag to wall with the LOD and my second step also still facing the same diagonal. Then cross behind why would I turn I am already there. The lady does have turn. If we look at the chart for the man you will see no turn by the feet. The feet are exactly on the same diagonal throughout the whole movement which includes the Progressive Chasse. This is the way Andrew Sinkinsontaught in the Seminar I attended..The shoulders are already open. Nothing there is any difference to how it is discribed in Alex Moores Book. Cheers.

From your description I understand two things: (1) You believe the lady should turn herself without being lead, and (2) you believe in promenade position, your shoulders should be at a 90 degree angle to your partner's.

I, for one, would never dare teach a lady to do anything without any sort of indication or lead. This turns the partnership into a constant guessing game rather than an act of true communication, and opens up the door for constant mistakes and misunderstandings. It's not the follower's job to do something because the book says so, it's her job to do something because the leader says so. Simply stepping sideways is not a lead to promenade.

If your shoulders are at a 90 degree angle to your partner's in promenade position, then your right shoulder sure looks nice as an earring!

Regards,
Jonathan

Jonathan,

Thank you!

I would like to underscore the point that the lady's failure to follow properly diminishes the lead's ability to manage the floor.

In a showcase, such a problem may not matter much; in a competition, however, it can mean a disaster.

jj