Jonathan, I've watched that video - several times. I'll watch it again when I return home this evening and respond more substantively.

jj

Jonathan, the angle of view for the figure which you mention makes it impossible to see if Melissa's shoulders are parallel to your own at that point.

Later in the same routine, after you untwist out of a Whisk into a Back Twinkle, you come out in Promenade Position into a chasse' (at about 26 seconds into the video). If others wish to look, I'll allow them to make their own judgment about the relationship between your shoulders and your partner's.

This is your website and I don't mean to be an unpleasant guest but I stand by my original position (however long ago I may have posted it): the defining characteristic of Promenade Position is not parallel shoulders any more than foot rise is the defining characteristic of a Whisk.



jj

For me it's not about whether it's a "defining characteristic", or what the ideal angle is if you break out a protractor and measure Luca and Lorraine, or worse... what our "founding fathers" intended. Ugh. I'd rather leave that kind of theoretical horseplay to our friends here who enjoy splitting those hairs. To me as a teacher, it's impractical and pointless.

My approach is much simpler than that. I'm interested only in what makes good dancing, and to that end, the closer to parallel the shoulders, the better the topline. It's not about whether you reach that endpoint -- It's the relationship that's important.

As to whether they're actually perfectly parallel, it doesn't really matter. As I said originally, I think there's a tiny bit of wiggle room, depending on one's build. The greater point, though, is that you should be trying to make them as parallel as you can physically manage, while still opening the hips enough to allow the leg to pass easily through.

Actually, I enjoy discussing theory with people whose opinions differ from mine. That doesn't make you an unpleasant guest. There are a couple of unpleasant people in our midst, but the fact that their opinions differ is not what makes them unpleasant. So no worries... argue away.

Regards,
Jonathan

jofjonesboro. I think you are correct in what you have written. I looking at the top line can see that the ladies right bust which is in contact most of the time does move away on that 26 second part. Which to me means the shoulders are not parelell. I think was is sometimes misunderstood is the man can remain static it is the lady who does the turning. Which to the untrained eye may look as if the man has turned. That is why after some remarks about Alex I have gone to Victor Silvester's book. Who also says that on a Whisk the amount of turn for the man is nil. The appearance of the man turning comes from the ladies turning.
I wonder if any out there have tried one of those Dance Frames. They might be suprised on how it keeps the elbows and shoulders over the feet and does discourage twisting out of line.

"That is why after some remarks about Alex I have gone to Victor Silvester's book. Who also says that on a Whisk the amount of turn for the man is nil."

Indeed there is no turn in the man's feet. But there IS turn in the man's body - as someone pointed out, Guy Howard specifically comments on this.

"The appearance of the man turning comes from the ladies turning."

And also from the man turning his BODY towards the lady. But since book turn is stated for the feet rather than for the body, this in no way contradicts the statement that there is no turn of the feet.

"I wonder if any out there have tried one of those Dance Frames. They might be suprised on how it keeps the elbows and shoulders over the feet and does discourage twisting out of line."

It is impossible to dance a clean promenade unless you rotate your upper body relative to your feet, as anyone who's spent even a single lesson on promenade with a real teacher would know. If you tried to achieve promenade while wearing one of those frame trainers which would prevent you from breaking your shoulder, you'd be forced to either depress your left hand to the horizontal, or introduce an appropriate twist in your body so that your shoulders can stay parallel to your arms as your feet turn out.

"the defining characteristic of Promenade Position is not parallel shoulders"

The problem here is that your search for a "defining characteristic" is going to lead to getting the emphasis in promenade all wrong.

The point of promenade is not to make a point of the fact that you are in promenade - instead, the point of promenade is to dance seamlessly with your partner, in a situation in which you both happen to be using your legs in a diagonally forwards direction, rather than the more typical one forwards one backwards. If you make a big deal of it, you are completely missing the point - the defining characteristic of promenade is that it still has to be good, clean, well partnered dancing. If you call attention to the fact that you are in promenade, then you've done it wrong - you've let something trite and incidental overshadow the flow and artistry of your dancing.

Doing your utmost to achieve a parallel topline is the simplest explanation of how you would go about dancing such a good, clean promenade. Nobody will be perfect, but that is the goal to work towards, because that is the goal that makes promenade not something odd, but simply dancing.

Jonathan made a great point when he commented on the situation in which he opened out slightly before the step through, and then fixed it with a rotation towards his partner at the end of the step through. This is a very common fault to one degree or another, caused not just by the need to make room for the legs, but also by our tendancy to bring the trailing side of our body forward when we bring the leg through. The English coaches make a big deal of having you work on swinging that leg across the body, for the man this would be the feeling of the right knee going up and across towards the left shoulder, as opposed to having the right side bring the right leg forward, which would implicitly result in undesired opening out.

But this common issue also highlights a basic element of the technique: most promenade actions specify CBM for both partners on the step through in PP. And that CBM is there not only to initiate turn (for one partner it's in the wrong direction to do that), but to insure that the bodies rotate towards each other rather than away from each other as those inside legs go through. This mutual CBM is only ommited in the figures where one partner is on the inside of a sharp enough turn that the tendency towards opening out that would ordinarily be objectionable is useful for initiating the desired turn.

Anonymous. CBMP . The shoulders are already in the correct position after the Whisk. Therefore CBMP page 160

"Anonymous. CBMP . The shoulders are already in the correct position after the Whisk. Therefore CBMP page 160"

If you will look it up, you will see that the instruction is to apply CBM on the step through in promenade.

I would also state that the shoulders should be in the correct position at the end of the whisk, which is to say as parallel to the partner's as can be achieved.

The instruction to utilize CBM is to keep them in that position as the inside step is taken - the instructed CBM specifically counteracts the temptation to open out during the step.

Common not understood points concerning CBMP and CBM. In CBMP the shoulder is in place and we step across our body towards the opposite shoulder . Also there is no turn whilst CBMP is being used. The next step if this is a Weave Step forward LF at the same time swing the right hip and shoulder forward. In short on one of them the shoulder is in position at the beginning . On the other it isn't in posotion at the beginning.
If you read the book correctly you will see there is CBMP on the first step and the fourth. CBM on two and five.

"Common not understood points concerning CBMP and CBM."

The book specifically says to apply CBM.

The step is also forward and across CBMP.

"if this is a Weave Step"

It's not, it's a chasse from promenade.

In contrast the weave from promenade is one of the infrequent cases of the category that I mentioned above where there's enough turn towards the man in the figure that he will not have CBM. Most promenades do not desire to make that sort of turn, so both partners have CBM. It's only the sharply turning cases where the outside partner will have CBM while the inside one does not - the more usual case (of which the chasse is an example) is that the turn if any is gradual and both partners CBM.