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+ View Older Messages

Re: No heel turns for men.
Posted by nloftofan1
9/8/2010  1:56:00 PM
This (Telemark's post) is a very good answer, and corresponds closely to what the "bible" (Alex Moore's book) says. Moore also points out that in the Heel Pull the weight is more forward than in a Heel Turn.
Re: No heel turns for men.
Posted by silver
9/8/2010  4:47:00 PM
Dheun,

I posed a similar question over a year ago, but mine was related to shoe wear caused from poorly executed heel pulls and turns. I got great advice from Telemark, and my heel turns have been quite good ever since. I saved his advice for my dance notes. It is very similar to what he wrote here. I am still grateful: The turn itself is wholly accomplished on the LF. The footwork is TH, but heel lowers earlier than a normal back step. The turn commences on the ball of foot, but continues and finishes on the heel. However, there is no T release (because the next step will be LF fwd), so the majority of the turn is made with the foot flat, but with a backward weight distribution (ie the foot turns around a point under the heel, not the ball of foot): this is where I suggest the 'right balance' is found by feeling the weight to be over the instep, rather than the very back edge of the heel. As the LF turns, the RF is drawn back, with the H in contact with the floor, but the pressure required is limited, and does not amount to divided weight - this is why you shouldn't be wearing out the edges of your shoes.

The weight transfer between LF & RF only occurs after the turn has been made: if you think in terms of a normal heel turn, the RF will not complete its close to the LF (assuming a R turn)until the turn itself if complete. On weight change, we often rise, but in a heel pull action we are usually 'down', and stay there. Footwork for the RF will be H to i/e of foot to flat foot.
Re: Getting to bottom of heel turns
Posted by cbmp
9/8/2010  7:25:00 PM
dheun, some observations re. your second question:

I think you're right in saying that the lady does far more heel turns than the man, at least in current practice. Apart from the impetus figures, it appears that all the heel turn figures are done by the lady: as per jj (btw, welcome back jj, nice to hear from you again

The man does a heel pivot in the quarter turn to left in quickstep, not quite the same as the heel turn.

The reason there's no heel turn in the natural and reverse turns in waltz has to do with the kind of swing rise in that dance, where the man begins to rise at the end of step 1. Whereas, in the foxtrot, he rises at the end of step 1. This distinction is made possible by him leading the lady into a heel turn in the latter. Also the footwork is open (no closing of the man's feet) in the foxtrot turns.

It is interesting to note that, originally, the man also did a heel turn in the natural and reverse turns in foxtrot (in the second half of the figure, doing the lady's opening steps, as we still have in the waltz turns). But Bill Irvine found the heel turn too restrictive. So we now have the man's version of the heel turn--the heel pull for the natural turn (and also the feather finish for the reverse turn).
Re: Getting to bottom of heel turns
Posted by dheun
9/9/2010  4:40:00 PM
Great answers by everyone, as usual.
Can anyone point to a video clip on this site that illustrates the proper heel pull being done by the man?
I know the heel turn by the woman is shown very well on the International Standard Fox Trot reverse turn and, I think, on the waltz double reverse spin.
Re: Getting to bottom of heel turns
Posted by cbmp
9/9/2010  5:50:00 PM
dheun, see the Waltz: Hesitation Change; Foxtrot: Natural Turn; Quickstep: Natural Turn, Natural Turn with Hesitation.
Re: Getting to bottom of heel turns
Posted by dheun
9/9/2010  8:42:00 PM
Those are perfect. Thanks. I think with the new setup on the videos, Jonathan has put in better descriptions of what is taking place. So I see that they now describe the heel pull, and exactly when it takes place. Makes it far easier to figure out how it should look, and gives you a better chance to know how it should feel as well.
Re: Getting to bottom of heel turns
Posted by ME
9/8/2010  6:25:00 PM
Heel Turn singular. Not Heels Turn which is plural.
Can the Sway to the inside of the turn which takes the weight off the moving foot on step 2 and 3 have a bearing on this. Plus of course that dreaded CBM on one, and how to apply it.
I have found that with inexperienced dancers on the Heel Turn they move the moving foot too soon, not allowing the full two beats on the first step
The other thing that needs to be mentioned is when practising alone the lady has to turn herself. When with a partner the man can do it for her. Practising alone can create a bad habit of trying to turn too soon and not at the end of the step one.
Re: Getting to bottom of heel turns
Posted by Telemark
9/12/2010  4:19:00 AM
I teach heel turns without making any turn at all. When pupils get together, in couples, I ask the person making the outside turn action to turn the person on the inside. You can hear the pennies drop, in comprehension.

I don't think attributing two beats to the first step is correct, in a heel pull, but by all means slow down the SECOND step, and make it last nearly two beats. In Waltz you could time the movement 1 23 & to good effect.
Re: No heel turns for men.
Posted by Mayu
9/14/2010  11:49:00 PM
This is true in Japan also...I live in Japan and the man always holds his heel up to dance...only ladies do a true heel turn
Re: No heel turns for men.
Posted by terence2
9/16/2010  12:09:00 AM
ALWAYS ?.. I dont think so.. they would never advance to final rounds of major comps ( as many do ) if they had that "technique "... the normal lowering required in ALL B/room dance is taught exactly the same way in all countries that dance the Intern. style

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