Yes, but I have to approach such things gingerly to some extent. Not always, but at times. I perceive insecurities in her, and my queries (challenges) can be taken as personal affronts of her knowledge at times. Shes fairly open minded, but, I still try to debate technical matters judiciously. I m older than her, and I work in a profession where I have discussions most people would never want to have with individuals many people would prefer dead, so talking isnt an issue for me, but after the end of my work days, I try not to be too direct.
Some dance teachers are never wrong, but my teacher isnt like that. Shes a good person, and she has helped me to improve. Im grateful. Im just a bit testy I guess. Oh, and I am paying for the lessons. (Somebody slap me.)

Touche!

Actually, dancing runarounds without a specific foot rhythm is extremely common amongst advanced dancers. It is a sort of emulation of ice skaters' spins, whereby the dancers turn so quickly, one is only aware of the overall picture of bodies spinning around each other, and footfalls become irrelevant.

If you watch a ceiling fan start up gradually toward full speed, there's a point at which you are no longer able to track the individual blades with your eyes; All you see is a blur. This is the idea conceptually behind a runaround. Obviously we can't actually spin fast enough to become a true blur to the human eye, but a good runaround does give the impression of a "whirlwind" of bodies.

In short, your teacher is not misleading you.

Regards,
Jonathan Atkinson
www.ballroomdancers.com

Thanks Jonathon,

I understand your point, and I can visualize it, as well. However, my mind keeps going back to a concept of timing. Even the skaters have to spin at a rate that matches or compliments the music they are skating to. To do otherwise might cause them to look awkward. I'm not advanced to the point yet where I think I can pull it off as a more experienced dancer might. The song's timing is at about 64 beats per minute. We will be doing 2 reverse pivots then pausing for a measure before initiating the run-a-round. By the end of the 3rd measure of the run-around, we have to be striking a picture line (basically a static open impetus) in preparation for an oversway. So, there is an issue of me getting up to momemtum real fast and sustaining it for less than 8 seconds. So: pause, run, and stop. I have to be on my left foot for the oversway. I can do it counting, but I'm not yet quite the Olympic skater.

64 beats per minute?
Oh, now I see it in a previous post - math error. 28 MPM = 84 bpm

I was about ready to change my name to BumpyGeezer because I can't even come close to doing 64 bpm smoothly.

Yes, I most definately erred in my math. Sorry. It's a nice waltz tempo.

Just making sure we're talking about the same element here -- In ice skating, it's called a Scratch Spin -- whereby a solo skater will spin around and around on a single spot. Typically the skater will draw his arms and legs inward, causing the timing of each consecutive turn to speed up. Since the music is not also speeding up, it is impossible that each spin is matching the individual counts in the music. To appear musical, the spin may begin and end on a particular count, but everything in between is ultimately just a blur.

Music is a fascinating and complex subject in dancing. Certainly a large part of it is based in simple mathematics. But it is a mistake to discount the human component, as music is, in fact, an art form. Sometimes in other art forms, mathematical precision can, in certain contexts, be perceived as less artistic. Likewise in dancing, rhythmical precision may be perceived as less "musical".

There is a device used in orchestral music known as a "run" or "swell" often played by various combinations of strings (i.e. violins, violas, celli & basses). It is notated in a very unorthodox manner: Rather than dividing a group of beats into perfect, symmetrical parts (e.g. a group of eight 16th notes over two beats), they'll squeeze any seemingly random number of notes into the phrase. For example, you might have a run of 17 notes over two beats, where in theory each note should get 2/17ths of a beat. In reality, every musician interprets this slightly differently, and what you hear is a musical "effect" which has no exact pitch, but a general movement upward or downward (or some combination thereof), which evokes a certain feeling.

Incidentally, string and harp runs happen to be a great complement to runarounds. Choreographers take note: If you are choreographing to a Waltz that has a long swell of at least two measures, it's a perfect place for a runaround!

At any rate, needless to say, context is everything in art and music. There is typically a logical explanation behind every departure from the "rules". And when you're breaking rules of rhythmic precision, the justification will probably have something to do with perception. In music an especially in dancing, your brain selectively filters information in ways that allow it to accept -- or even prefer -- an alternative to rhythmical precision.

Your brain goes through this process each and every time you set foot on the dance floor. When you concentrate on your foot rhythms, you are probably unaware of all of the other various parts of your body that may or may not be "off-time", such as the swing of an arm or the twist of your body. Body mechanics are so complex that it is impossible to be aware of every individual movement at once. And even if you could be aware of everything all the time, it is impossible to make every single aspect of every movement perfectly rhythmical at the same time. And so we make choices, and do our best to draw the spectator's attention to the elements we've chosen.

When you dance a runaround, your first job is to draw the spectator's (and for that matter, your own) attention away from the foot rhythm. If you simply "can't get past it", it's likely you don't truly want to, which is ok because art is, after all, a matter of taste. But if that's the case, I suggest you tell your teacher it's not for you. However, assuming you do want to conquer the hurdle, you have to start by accepting that foot rhythm is not the point of this movement, and take your mind off of it by distracting yourself from it. The best way to distract is to concentrate on other things, such as the speed of the whole body (i.e. as fast as possible), or other rhythms such as arms, hands, head, etc.

Regards,
Jonathan Atkinson
www.ballroomdancers.com

Heres an analogy..

a well known Amat. asked A. Moore " How fast should I turn in a Quick standing spin ?".. his response.. " As fast as you can my dear !"..

Thanks again Jonathan,

The concept of using a distraction is helpful. I will find the means to employ that concept. I know the music so well, that I can learn when to be where I need to and on the right foot. But I bet my mind is still acting on timing. The train must arrive on time. I will definately conquer this small challenge. I will take on all legal, double-dog-dance-dares until such time as not able, and that time is far away, I hope.

Terence and Jonathan,

Last night at practice, I ran around as fast as I could while counting the time in my head, and it can be done successfully. I gave no thought to the timing of my feet, only the count of the song. I think I will be able to work out how many revolutions I can spin into the time allowed before stopping with weight on my left foot in the picture line.

This discourse has been a good one.