The major difference between the lady's heel turns and a man's literal heel turn (as in a textbook impetus) is that when the lady dances the heel turn both partners rise at the end of one, but when the man dances it both partners rise at the end of two (the lady will come onto a toe on step 2, but a very low one - she is not "up" until he leads rise at the completion of the turn)

The woman's rise at the end of count one is body rise only while the man's is a true foot rise.

Therefore, it is more than a little misleading to claim that "when the lady dances the heel turn both partners rise at the end of one, . . ."

Consider the reverse turn in Fox Trot, for example, where the man's early foot rise assists his partner with her heel turn. The woman's body rise is necessary only to accommodate the man's movement.

jj

Sorry. Got that wrong. That was of course the Reverse Turn. Just switch it around.

Now, you're guilty of oversimplification, too, for while foot rise is the most visible and obvious component of rise, it is only one of four: increased elevation created by bracing leg muscles; straightning of the knees; stretching upwards of the body AND raising the heels from the floor. The cumulative effect of the NFR elements are greater, arguably, than foot rise on its own (not that you could, ever, have foot rise only), but on a FT Reverse Turn we have lady "rising slightly e/o 1 NFR", which is slightly different from both suggestions on the topic.

No, I'm pretty sure that it isn't.

jj

I'm interested that Telemark says a heel turn is essentially flat and that there is no lifting the toes. In my Int. Stand. lessons we are definitely taught to lift our toes (both of them) during a heel turn, whatever the dance. I follow, but I also see the leaders being taught to do this.

I believe you may have mis interpreted the context.. Yes, the Toe does release as the back ward step commences, but then it MUST lower to a FLAT foot.. as will the next action ( it wouldnt be a heel turn, would it ?, without )..

Like most footwork thats says " Toe release " it is usually accepted that the foot will return to a normal flat position , and the point of this is to allow contact with the floor, providing a " skimming " action, until it reaches its destination where it should have completely lowered .

Get your teacher to show the mechanics of how the feet respond , from the commencement of the action to completion..

In addition, watch some vid. of top flite Profs...

"The woman's rise at the end of count one is body rise only while the man's is a true foot rise."

Yes, but this is not relevant to the difference between a man's heel turn and a lady's, as neither has foot rise on the inside of a heel turn.

"Therefore, it is more than a little misleading to claim that "when the lady dances the heel turn both partners rise at the end of one, . . .""

You may feel that it is misleading, but it is factually correct. And by dismissing it you have suffered some confusion about how heel turns work:

"Consider the reverse turn in Fox Trot, for example, where the man's early foot rise assists his partner with her heel turn. The woman's body rise is necessary only to accommodate the man's movement."

This is incorrect. It is the woman's body rise which causes her feet to close over the point of turn, rather than her free leg to swing through. This "stand up to close" is unique to the passive nature of the lady's heel turn. When a man dances a heel turn, he does not have this rise and so his action and his closure are more active.

Essentially, the difference between the rise when the man or lady dances the heel turn reflects the difference between if the heel turn is being danced by the active or the passive party.

Having the man passive on the inside of a heel turn is a bad idea - amongst other things, it results in overturning. Instead, the man stays down until the desired amount of foot turn has been achieved, then rises. In contrast, having the lady passive in her heel turn is a good idea, because it is the man's role to set the direction and timing.

As I pointed out earlier, men do not do heel turns.


I have no confusion at all about the workings of a heel turn. Rather, you have no understanding at all about how a heel turn is led.


The woman executes body rise when led by her partner to do so by his early foot rise.


Basically, you're saying that the man must lead. I agree.

jj

Did you? When? You suggested that somone else thought so, but that's hardly the same thing.

A heel turn is not a heel pull, but a heel pull is a heel turn, or at least that's what standard technique manuals say ...