In the video to which you've linked, I notice that the lead uses no pivoting action at all, executing step 4 almost as though he were dancing the 4-5-6 of a Natural.

Curious, I looked at my International Waltz video. For this figure, Victor dances the demonstration in pretty much the same fashion. When he breaks down the steps, however, he does an actual pivot.

Do we do as he does or as he says?

jj

"In the video to which you've linked, I notice that the lead uses no pivoting action at all, executing step 4 almost as though he were dancing the 4-5-6 of a Natural.

Curious, I looked at my International Waltz video. For this figure, Victor dances the demonstration in pretty much the same fashion. When he breaks down the steps, however, he does an actual pivot."

You will see this time and time again, with dancers whose practical habits are far better tuned than the "getting the written details but missing the point" way in which they've memorized the formal technique.

Of course there are also opposite situations - sloppiness in practice that gets cleaned up in abstract demonstration.

But this is an example of an action that is more optimal than that which results from trying to read the book too simply. A true pivot is a good precede to another pivot, or to a heel turn as in the running right turn - but it's not the most optimal interpretation to precede step 5 of a spin turn.

I disagree. The "most optimal interpretation" is the one that a couple can execute most effectively. Shortening or eliminating the pivot does not produce a better looking figure.

If you pull up the Hiltons or Gozzoli and Betti (or whoever he's dancing with) executing this figure (you have to look for it), you'll see that both Marcus and Mirko use a brief but unmistakable pivot on step 4.

jj

"I disagree. The "most optimal interpretation" is the one that a couple can execute most effectively. Shortening or eliminating the pivot does not produce a better looking figure."

On the contrary, the fact that it does produce a better action is precisely why people do this. The "flavor" of energy and poise needed to make substantial rotation of the weighted foot is not a good match to the following action of step 5. The modified action which you see people actually dancing in which they drive off the foot without completing a pivot is a much better match. Effectively, this is just the man's appropriate complement to the fact that the lady is departing step 4 from her toe, rather than her heel as she does in the cases when the rotation is to be completed.

"If you pull up the Hiltons or Gozzoli and Betti (or whoever he's dancing with) executing this figure (you have to look for it), you'll see that both Marcus and Mirko use a brief but unmistakable pivot on step 4."

There is a hint of a pivot, but not a true pivot. You yourself call it "brief" which hardly supports your argument above against "shortening" it.

A good spin turn has as much in common with 456 of a natural as it does with a natural pivot turn - which is to say, it has hints of both, but is neither.

If this is true then you are not executing the pivot correctly. You're probably allowing yourself to become backweighted instead of simply letting the heel "kiss the floor" as some say.

Yes, the actions in the videos are definite pivots. I called them "brief" because they are not a complete half rotation.

This statement is simply not true because of the nature of step 5 in each figure. In the Natural Turn, Step 5 is "to side" but in the NST it's "FWD in CBMP," between the woman's feet.

If the man steps forward with the RF without pivoting to some extent - to re-orient the direction of the standing foot - then he creates a very ugly step as Victor himself explains in the breakdown. Why didn't Victor take more care to demonstrate it properly? I don't know - possibly time constraints.

jj

"If this is true then you are not executing the pivot correctly."

I do pivots very well, thank you. And their energy management is nothing like spin turns. It's a completely different relationship between body and feet. Practicing inserting a variable number of true pivots between a natural turn and 456 of the spin turn will make this clear - in particular, remembering to get out of "pivot mode" when taking step 4 (not step 5) will be key to the natural evolution of a nice spin turn action.

"Yes, the actions in the videos are definite pivots."

Nope. They lack the torque to rotate the weighted standing foot against the floor in the same manner utilized by a pivot. Instead the body is allowed to develop relative to the standing foot in a way not seen in pivots.

"This statement is simply not true because of the nature of step 5 in each figure. In the Natural Turn, Step 5 is "to side" but in the NST it's "FWD in CBMP," between the woman's feet."

Well, first, it's not forward in CBMP though that typo has appeared in some texts. The right foot is never placed into CBMP in any interpretation of a spin turn, rather its existing position is redefined into CBMP by the turn in of the left foot during step 4. But the placement of step 5 is most definitely not in CBMP.

More importantly, the difference in the position of step 5 between the two figures is quite minimal. The difference in the description of its position occurs because the description is given relative to the alignment of the standing foot, which is somewhat different (though practically speaking, it should not be as different as you might assume)

"If the man steps forward with the RF without pivoting to some extent - to re-orient the direction of the standing foot - then he creates a very ugly step as Victor himself explains in the breakdown. Why didn't Victor take more care to demonstrate it properly? I don't know - possibly time constraints."

His body knows more than he credits it with. If the man allows his leg to rotate without his body, that causes a problem, yes. But when actually dancing some turn in is made as the left foot is placed, then the man's body turns as he moves over his standing left foot, which keeps his right leg properly associated with his body. This is a far superior match to the action of step 5 than making the majority of the turn by spinning the weighted left foot on the floor as is done in a true pivot.

Step 5 in the Natural Turn is a toe (as side steps often are) and in the NST is a heel lead to a toe (as forward steps often are). The difference is not minimal. In fact, it is critical.


It is different because the relationship of the standing foot to the direction of movement is different in each step - assuming that you execute each step correctly.


I never claimed that a man would do such a thing.


There is a huge difference between the rotation of the body to effect CBM and the turning of the body to execute a pivot.

Also, the association of the standing foot is as important - if not moreso - than that of the moving foot.


No, it isn't It's just easier for you to execute and it's more difficult for the woman.

jj

""More importantly, the difference in the position of step 5 between the two figures is quite minimal."

Step 5 in the Natural Turn is a toe (as side steps often are) and in the NST is a heel lead to a toe (as forward steps often are). The difference is not minimal. In fact, it is critical."

I wouldn't say otherwise. But you've just changed the topic from the subject of what you had previously posted and quoted my reply to, which was about the position of the step to the action of the step, which is a different topic entirely.

"It is different because the relationship of the standing foot to the direction of movement is different in each step - assuming that you execute each step correctly."

The real difference is the difference in relationship between the standing foot and the body. In a pivot the foot turns much more in unison with the body. In a spin turn, the foot turns primarily as it is placed and as it is departed, while the body turns throughout.

""If the man allows his leg to rotate without his body, . . .

I never claimed that a man would do such a thing."

Actually, this is the source of the "ugly" result you cite.

"". . . the man's body turns has (sic) he moves over his standing left foot, which keeps his right leg properly associated with his body."

There is a huge difference between the rotation of the body to effect CBM and the turning of the body to execute a pivot."

Indeed. The spin turn uses the former. A true pivot uses the later.

"Also, the association of the standing foot is as important - if not moreso - than that of the moving foot."

Actually, it's not. One of the key skills of a good dancer - and one that takes the longest to develop - is the ability to project the body away from the weight bearing foot - to depart that association in order to keep the body more associated with the moving foot. Many casual dancers never learn this, and suffer extremely in their capability for its lack.

""This is far superior match to the action of step 5 than making the majority of the turn by spinning the left foot on the floor."

No, it isn't It's just easier for you to execute and it's more difficult for the woman."

No. It's actually much easier for her. By developing his body over his left foot more than pivoting the foot, the man is in a much better position to enable the lady's rising toe spin on step 5 - in effect to swing his energy up from underneath. If he instead danced a true pivot, he would constrain the fullness of her step 5 and she would find it easier to dance a heel turn or a pivot instead - which is why that is what he does in the running right turn or in a series of consecutive driving pivots.

No, it is not different. Whether a step is sideways or forward depends on its direction relative to the body's position. The action of the step generally reflects that direction. For example, you're not going to use a heel lead in a side step.

Much the rest of this response is just slack verbiage. I'll deal with the two signficant points.


All figures in Standard - including the pivot - use CBM. Your statement is meaningless.

Your last paragraph could be used in a text about how to dance poorly.

The pivot is completed in Step 4. Because the man's orientation is then directly forward instead of somewhat sideways, there is nothing whatsoever to "constrain the fullness of [the lady's] Step 5."

If the man does not pivot correctly on step 4 then step 5 will not be down LOD as it should. The man cannot complete Step 5 with CBM alone from Step 4 of a Natural Turn. Doing so would make Step 5 difficult to turn fully. By completing the pivot and facing down LOD - or even nearly facing that way - the man can lead Step 5 in as full a turn as he wishes.

As I've pointed out previously, your complaints about the pivot in this move clearly indicate that you simply have not been taught to perform one correctly. I'll admit that, for some dancers, keeping the proper poise during a pivot can be intimidating.

It's also apparent that you have no idea how to lead one. That's what doing pro/am will get you.

jj

"No, it is not different. Whether a step is sideways or forward depends on its direction relative to the body's position. The action of the step generally reflects that direction. For example, you're not going to use a heel lead in a side step."

It remains a different topic, as rather obviously demonstrated by the fact that a forward step can be onto either the heel or the toe.

"The pivot is completed in Step 4. Because the man's orientation is then directly forward instead of somewhat sideways, there is nothing whatsoever to "constrain the fullness of [the lady's] Step 5.""

Completing the pivot is precisely what will constrain the fullness of the lady's action, as it forces her to depart the unrisen right foot backwards, yet the footwork requires that she do so from her toe which results in a a weak action wisely avoided by dancers of any real practical experience. The strong choices are to depart the right foot substantially forwards from the inside edge of toe, as is done on step 4 of the natural or a well executed spin turn, or to depart the right foot backwards from the heel, as is done in a natural pivot turn or consecutive driving pivots.

A skilled lady dances towards step 5 with a forwards action, which evolves to backwards only as she arrives. Completing the pivot prevents her from doing this. Many very capable ladies get surprised when they see the book's description of the step direction, not realizing that it describes the end result rather than the action which is to be used to achieve it.

"If the man does not pivot correctly on step 4 then step 5 will not be down LOD as it should. The man cannot complete Step 5 in this manner with CBM alone from Step 4 of a Natural Turn."

In the contemporary technique it is step 4 that is literally given as down the LOD, not step 5, though older reference had this the other way. In practice, the desired placement of lady's step 5 is accomplished by a combination of the man's turn in and sideways displacement of step 4, with the cbm. Frankly a lot of the top guys are stepping further to the side on step 4 than I find optimal for enabling the lady, but neither they nor I find substantially pivoting our foot advantageous.

"Doing so would make Step 5 difficult to turn fully."

Nonsense. There is no problem achieving any of the desired amounts of turn, from severe underturn to severe overturn.

"By completing the pivot and facing down LOD - or even nearly facing that way - the man can lead Step 5 in as full a turn as he wishes."

Sure, but only by drastically weakening the power of the step 5 action, compared to what can be achieved by not overturning the foot on step 4. By underturning the foot during step 4, skilled dancers are able to incorporate the "have a side left to swing" power mechanism into their spin turn.

"As I've pointed out previously, your complaints about the pivot in this move clearly indicate that you simply have not been taught to perform one correctly."

On the contrary, I'm well versed in the difference between a good spin turn and a good pivot, and the finer variations thereof, such as pivot sequences modified by rise and fall, which you still fail to understand.

"It's also quite apparent that you have no idea how to lead one. That's what doing pro/am will get you."

I have never done pro/am, but I've helped many male students better understand how to lead a nice spin turn, by leading them through the lady's action of one so that they can feel the difference between her experience when the man enables the fullness of her action, vs when he constrains it by overturning step 4.