"Quarter Turn to R, continue into 5 & 6 of NST, Lock Step (partner inline), Running Right Turn (or 5-10 of RRT), Natural turn, Back Lock & Running Finish, or any Natural figure."

Moore's Revised Technique says just 'any Natural figure' with Quarter Turn preferred.

I imagine that the woman has no foot rise on the first step of any - or most - of those figures as she does when she steps backwards into Step 5 of the NST.

jj

"I imagine that the woman has no rise on the first step of any - or most - of those figures as she does when she steps backwards into Step 5 of the NST."

On the contrary she does. Body rise, but still rise. Note also that the rise will not occur until after the right foot has moved from it's placement on the floor.

Before you get sidetracked by the lack of foot rise (as I see by your later edit you have), be aware that the lady must (and the man would be advised) to still dance off the heel when moving backwards from a lowered position into a step with actual foot rise, see for example the footwork and notes of the back lock action.

But you are almost on to something that i alluded to a couple days ago - the spin turn has a kind of up from underneath energy going into step 5, which is better served by a less complete rotation on step 4. In the other cases, step 5 is to be more contained inside of the couple's subsequent turn and is served by a more complete rotation of the previous step.

Or to put it more bluntly, skilled dancers 'swing' the lady 'towards' step 5 of a spin turn, but contrastingly place her 'onto' the step following a pivot turn.

ME, man effectively creates the CBMP by he backward movement with CBM. If the body turn starts early (as it must), it is inevitable that the movement back of the foot is relative to the body position, and while the foot is moving down the LOD, it isn't usually doing so quite straight, but more like the lady's next step (back and slightly leftwards). However it is a fault to overdo this, and if the end result is that the pivot is lost, and man is just dancing an inside turn action, he is no longer dancing a NST.

The RF is held in CBMP between steps 4 & 5, the position is created on the back step, maintained, and lost with the use of CBM into step 5.

If this is a Natural Pivot Turn, the lady's HTH footwork is easily accounted for, because the next step back will be a normal TH with a T release of the trailing foot. If the Pivoting Action was danced HT (as it is in a NST because of the following spin step on the T), the heel would not end in contact with the floor, and the T release would be impossible. They are a very straightforward pair of turns, suitable for beginners. It amazes me that so much 'flim flam' is being pedalled about them here.

"ME, man effectively creates the CBMP by he backward movement with CBM. If the body turn starts early (as it must), it is inevitable that the movement back of the foot is relative to the body position"

Note that it is not the moving foot which is in CBMP (as it would be if a step were taken into CBMP), but the standing foot. Even the slightest turn in of the moving foot will cause this - it actually happens on almost every backwards action with CBM. And as with other backwards actions with CBM, the departed foot will in practice exit CBMP before the completion of its own movement.

"and while the foot is moving down the LOD, it isn't usually doing so quite straight"

This is much more accurate than your post of 10/07 in which your tried to tell us that the step was straight back, disputing the sideways component that I had mentioned.

"but more like the lady's next step (back and slightly leftwards)."

No, it is not like the lady's next step. The action of the lady's step 5 is not backwards. The listed result is backwards, but the action is sideways or even still forwards, with the backwards direction being achieved only during arrival. The book describes where you will end up, but not literally how to get there.

"However it is a fault to overdo this, and if the end result is that the pivot is lost, and man is just dancing an inside turn action, he is no longer dancing a NST."

The key realization is that an NST is primarily an inside of turn action, much more than it is a pivot action. Its actually quite interesting to watch teaching videos - you may see the man start by doing a pivot solo and slowly, but as he moves to tempo his standing foot rotates less, and particularly as his partner is added, the inside of turn aspect dominates, such that the the foot rotation may occur entirely during the placement and the departure, with no turn at all being made while he is over it. There is a more comprehensive and practical understanding of the mechanics of the step in the dancer's body than in their mind.

"The RF is held in CBMP between steps 4 & 5, the position is created on the back step, maintained, and lost with the use of CBM into step 5."

I would agree that the CBMP is lost, but I'd note that several references state that step 5 is in CBMP - which is one of those actual errors in the writing that do creep into books from time to time.

"If this is a Natural Pivot Turn, the lady's HTH footwork is easily accounted for, because the next step back will be a normal TH with a T release of the trailing foot. If the Pivoting Action was danced HT (as it is in a NST because of the following spin step on the T), the heel would not end in contact with the floor, and the T release would be impossible.

Almost. To really understand the situation it is necessary to realize that one departs a lowered foot backwards from its heel, by releasing the toe, regardless if the next step will be already risen, or if it will be rising at its end, or if it will be remaining down. So the rise itself is not directly the reason for the different footwork on step 4.

The actual factor at cause is that the rising character of step 5 is better served by an underturned step 4, such that the lady can swing sideways or even still substantially forwards towards the position of step 5. And departing an underturned foot sideways or even still forwards requires that the departure be from the toe, rather than the heel.

So the rise during step 5 is the answer, but only indirectly - the rise suggests the underturn of 4, and the underturn requires the toe.

Very well put.

While competing pros - and amateurs dancing in the open levels - do use syllabus figures, they're free to do anything that they want as long as they do not betray the character of the dance (and maintain closed position, use proper footwork, etc.).

It is a mistake to claim that judges at professional and championship-level amateur competitions apply a different "reading" to the execution of various figures. The dancers at those levels are free to execute the figures in amy manner that they choose -- and even to invent moves.

As I noted earler (much, much earlier), pros teaching syllabus figures to amateurs observe proper technique. When they demonstrate, however, they slip into the "open" mode in which they're more comfortable.

So the answer to my original question is "Do as they say."

jj

There is no sideways component. Please don't try to put words into my mouth. Relative to the body position, the foot moves directly back (back, not side). That's what I said: that's what I meant.



No, it's rather obviously a pivot & spin.



I don't think anyone agrees with you.



At least I can agree that step 5 (as man) isn't taken in CBMP, although the Revised Technique does say otherwise. Howard is more accurate, and this is one of the small differences between ISTD & IDTA technique. He says (correctly, in my view) that the RF is held in CBMP while the man pivots on step 4. That CBMP is lost on the following step because of the nature of the spin that follows.

I don't think there's anything else to say about this figure: we aren't in a beginner's class.

Based on your quoted passages, I think that you meant to respond to anymouse.

jj

"While competing pros - and amateurs dancing in the open levels - do use syllabus figures, they're free to do anything that they want as long as they do not betray the character of the dance (and maintain closed position, use proper footwork, etc.)."

They are certainly capable of variations, but they also execute the figures as described in the book much better than those who misunderstand the writing style of the book do. The book does not tell you how to dance. Instead, the book documents some figures you could do, but you must apply rules of movement that are not stated in the charts if you are to execute the actions of moving between the given positions correctly.

"As I noted earler (much, much earlier), pros teaching syllabus figures to amateurs observe proper technique. When they demonstrate, however, they slip into the "open" mode in which they're more comfortable."

It is those final demonstrations which show the dancer's experience-honed physical understanding of basic figures. The rather stilted things you may see in a broken down demonstration reflect an unfortunate trend of misunderstanding the writing style and goals of the book. Rather than saying one thing and then silently doing another, they would do much better to explain that the role of the book is to document an outline, not instruct in execution.

Dancing is not steps, rather it is the action in between them. It follows that a demonstration of individual steps in isolation is not dancing - it's a series of dots that have not yet been connected.

"There is no sideways component. Please don't try to put words into my mouth."

I quoted you exactly, when you said:

"but more like the lady's next step (back and slightly leftwards)."

So which of your conflicting posts was your mistake? Your denial of a sideways component? or your mention of a leftwards one?

"Relative to the body position, the foot moves directly back (back, not side). That's what I said: that's what I meant."

No, you said, and again I quote exactly, "(back and slightly leftwards)." You might also want to remember that basic principles of execution mean that the previous step is going to be turned notably less in the body than the foot alignment given in the outline - even a step directly down the LOD would in practice be somewhat sideways "relative to the body position" as you put it.

""The key realization is that an NST is primarily an inside of turn action, much more than it is a pivot action."

No, it's rather obviously a pivot & spin."

As anyone with any real experience of dancing is aware in their body if not their mind, it is a swinging change of places followed by a spinning one.

"Almost. To really understand the situation it is necessary to realize ..."

I don't think anyone agrees with you."

You might want to read up on footwork, as you clearly don't understand it's principles. A backwards step from a lowered position departs the standing foot via the heel, regardless if there is or isn't rise.

"At least I can agree that step 5 (as man) isn't taken in CBMP, although the Revised Technique does say otherwise. Howard is more accurate, and this is one of the small differences between ISTD & IDTA technique. He says (correctly, in my view) that the RF is held in CBMP while the man pivots on step 4. That CBMP is lost on the following step because of the nature of the spin that follows."

I rather firmly believe it to be an editor's error in the first place, not a difference of substance. The cbmp is actually lost well before the spin, as skilled dancers know to underturn the quasi-pivot (if they even do one at all) in order to enhance the swing into the spin.

"I don't think there's anything else to say about this figure: we aren't in a beginner's class."

Especially in a beginners class, one should not make the mistake of trying to complete 180 degrees of turn over the foot, but instead should be instructed in basic movement principles, such as the use of swing to connect the footprints with flow and musicality. Having a teacher with the knowledge and experience to explain such things is the primary differentiator between a situation where students will work hard while going nowhere, and where students will quickly graduate from beginner classes to ever more capable dancing.