"Your claim that there is such a thing as "the relaxation that was needed when first arriving onto step 1" is just silliness. Even if there were some part of the dancer's form that would be relaxed at such a time, it would not be the core."

If you wish to fully utilize the energy available in the downswing, you need to release the muscle tension you are carrying into it. Since there are not at this point any forces due to movement that would distort your body trunk, you really do not need any more core tone than you would have if you were just standing around in a non-dancing mode.

". . . the times when we are simply following our inertia with our body vertical, . . .

There are no such times."

You will be a much better dancer when you discover them. Dancing is not about work, work, work - it is about the cyclic transition between drive and drift, and between fall and rise.

"Also, I have no idea what you mean by "excess tension." Do you seriously believe that some dancers could be tightening their core too much?"

Absolutely, it is an extremely common problem.

"Are there any recorded instances of a dancer suffering a hernia, for example, due to extreme exertion of the abs and glutes?"

I'd be surprised if there weren't. But that's largely irrelevant. Over use does not have to risk injury in order to be detrimental - the minute it starts limiting the needed release it becomes a problem. Luca Baricchi has or at least had a great lecture on this on youtube - though in my opinion he argues for taking the relaxation too far.

The essentially skill is to be able to have one muscle activated to sustain an aspect of posture that could not be maintained against otherwise, while having another immediately next to it, or its sibling on the other side of the body, entirely relaxed to permit a range of movement that could not be achieved otherwise.

Listening to the exchanges between anymouse and jofj reminds me of what goes on in Washington, D.C. -- a lot of rhetoric from men and women who are so much alike, they think they dislike each other. Watching from the sidelines, I can say that both of you bring very insightful and thoughtful material to this board. Who is right and who is wrong is not as important as understanding how other dancers think and view things, so all of that is very good. Since I started this post, and received a lot of great ideas and feedback, and then it went off into other interesting areas, I can say that jofj's idea about holding the butt firm as if not wanting to break wind is a humorous and good tip to share with students, and it actually works in making you look more solid and strong. And anymouse always views things almost like a scientist, which is also good.
Thanks for the debates.

No vulgarity taken. I was told to engage my ab muscles all the way down to just above the pubic bone. I think that's possibly the same thing. I'm not an expert in such matters!

Yes, that works.

It is possible to contract the lower abs without also engaging the hips but doing so requires a complex action.
It's easier and much more effective just to tighten your butt.

jj

PS Not too hard, though. Don't want to risk a hernia!

"It is possible to contract the lower abs without also engaging the hips but doing so requires a complex action.
It's easier and much more effective just to tighten your butt."

Conceptually easier perhaps, but quickly counterproductive to continued progress. Especially if you do so bilaterally.

The most important physical part of becoming a dancer is about learning the precise control to activate the muscles that will help you at the specific times when they will help you, and to relax everything that will impede you at any time when it is not able to productively contribute.

(Much of the remainder is about strengthening the muscles you have identified for productive use in key actions - though employing them a lot soon accomplished this)

So that's the secret.

I think that can be learned in tai chi.

Muscles activate themselves when called upon as trained to do so.

jj

"Muscles activate themselves when called upon as trained to do so. "

Sure. But this is equally true for muscles productive towards and goal, and for muscles counterproductive towards it.

To maximize dancing - both capability and comfort - it will be necessary to be far more specific about which muscles are and are not activated, and when, than what you have been advocating for. That is the precision part of training (building strength is the other)

Dancing is so much easier and more enjoyable when one learns not to fight one's own body, but instead to use it efficiently. It is easy to assume that top dancers are simply stronger (ultimately they are, in key areas). But what is actually much more important is how efficient their expertise lets them be.

The layman would also quickly notice how much more flexible skilled dancers are in key areas of their body. And there again, flexibility is a process both of slightly adapting the structure of the body through physical training, and gaining the ability to relax muscles which would otherwise limit range of motion.

Let us not forget that muscles that serve to move a joint work in pairs: e.g., for hip (a joint) flexion, we engage the iliopsoas and rectus femoris, and for hip extension, the hamstrings and gluteus maximus (butt). We need both sets of muscles to walk efficiently. To dance efficiently, their activation needs to be timed precisely.

Some muscle sets, e.g., the "core" (transverse/rectus abdominis, internal/external obliques) serve the primary purpose of spinal stabilization. For dance, that relates to posture and balance.

When we are told to "relax" certain muscles, that usually means they are overactive, owing to everyday use. E.g., pectoralis major/minor (chest muscles). It would be a mistake, however, to conclude that such muscles play no part whatsoever. Every muscle plays a part, in the correct proportion, of course.

Even the apparently relaxed movements in tai chi require the efficiently timed, synergistic interplay of complementary muscle groups, coupled with a foundational core. For unimpeded chi flow, however, there must be no excess tenseness. The aim is appropriate muscle tone through internal awareness. These are not empty buzzwords.

Very well - and concisely - expressed.

Proper tone is the product of training over an extended period of time. It is something that is expressed not consciously but subconsciously.

"Keep your butt tightened" does not mean "keep your core locked."

jj

--"Keep your butt tightened" does not mean "keep your core locked."

Agree.

On the other side of the relaxation issue, muscles that don't usually work enough need conscious attention during training, especially the butt and core.