Hello,

My partner gets back-weighted in Standard dancing. Whenever he goes back, his head and shoulders move backward much faster than his centre and the moving foot - as the result, he is always falling back. His frame gets very shallow and I have difficulties staying in his right side. Any advice on how to keep his uppder body forward, steady and quiet?

Thank you.

Tell him to sit down (slightly)

Squeezed. Lower the standing heel to the floor. As it touches floor the knee will bend towards partner. The heel must not touch the floor untill the moving leg is level with it. What will happen if the lowering is premature, The weight will move back onto the supporting heel too soon . The moving leg the front leg, is now trapped. As a consequence of this the standing knee cannot bend at the correct time. Once again according to the technique book I quote. " The heel must not touch the floor untill the moving leg is level with it ". Alex Moore page 13.

"Lower the standing heel to the floor."

Assuminng the step uses the heel.

"As it touches floor the knee will bend towards partner."

In some steps, not in others. If you have rise on the step in question (if it's step 1) there's not really any bending of the knee as the heel lowers - instead it straightens (because it had bent as you arrived)

"The heel must not touch the floor untill the moving leg is level with it."

Wrong wrong wrong WRONG!

This is true only for a FLAT walk without rise or fall. When danced with rise or fall, the heel will have to lower before then.

"The heel must not touch the floor untill the moving leg is level with it ". Alex Moore page 13. "

This is from the description of the flat walk taken without rise or fall - it is *not* from the description of a dance figure.

The issue of the moving leg becoming trapped is nonsense. In the case of fall, there is no problem because the moving knee bends as the standing knee does, meaning the moving leg will still be free to pass through. In the case of rise, there is no problem because the body rise taken from the heel lengthens the standing leg compared to the moving one, again making it free for delayed passage through.

Anonymous. The question was concerning the partners head and shoulders moving back before his center.
Just think about this if you are able. There are people out there who may be reading your comments. You are trying to tell them that a book that as stood the test of time is wrong.
Page 13. At the extent of the stride the ball of the back foot and the heel of the front foot are in contact with the floor. Please look at the computer images on this site for the Forward and Backward Walks. At the extent of the stride both legs wll be straight , the knees are not rigid
You wrote that the above description is of a flat walk. Which must means that you beleive there is a rise on some Backward Walks. As most of us are aware there is body rise only. Quote page 171. If foot rise is used, the flow of the figure will be seriously restricted.
Trapping the moving leg. Do you really believe that both knees are bent. What would that look like. How are you going to start the backward movement of the moving leg with the heel in contact with the floor if the leg is bent. Quote page 13. The foot is drawn back with the heel on the floor. At the extent of the stride both legs are straight, the knees are not rigid.
Distribution of weight. At the extent of the stride the weight is divided for a moment between the heel of the front foot and the ball of the back foot.
Page 13. Drawing the front heel back. The foot is drawn back with the heel on the floor. As it reaches the standing foot it becomes a ball.
Please feel free to provide name of Technique book and page if it differs to any of this. Read it very carefully. Example Waltz Natural Turn Commence to rise at the end of one. That means what it says. Not at the beginning of, or half way through, it means after step one is completed.
Just to finish. We have a style here called New Vogue, and like American Smooth it is a competition dance. Ours is a Sequence Dance, meaning all on the floor are performing the same steps. In it in several of the different dances, eight in all, we have what is called an Arial. That is a stationary position where the heel of the standing foot is raised to a toe. The moving foot is lifted to about knee high, toe pointing to the ground in front. The front leg is then swung back to a full extension behind, just like a Backward Walk. As it passes the raised foot, that foot lowers with the body staying in position and the knee bending. Then it moves back to become standing foot. The action of not trapping the moving leg has most of the same technique that a Backward Walk has.

"The question was concerning the partners head and shoulders moving back before his center."

Interesting then that you choose to speak of the feet and not the hips.

"Just think about this if you are able. There are people out there who may be reading your comments. You are trying to tell them that a book that as stood the test of time is wrong."

No, I am telling them that the book is right, but that it only describes one of hte situations we face in dancing - the one that is simplest, but least common, which is the case of no rise and no fall, which means no change in speed during the step.

Steps with rise or fall simply require different technique than that of a plain level constant speed walk.

"Page 13."

Page 13 describes a walk with neither rise nor fall. It is not direclty applicable to cases with rise or fall, which are similar but not identical in all respects. One of the key differences is when the heel lowers.

"You wrote that the above description is of a flat walk. Which must means that you beleive there is a rise on some Backward Walks."

You bet - the ones that say "commence to rise" or "rise"

"As most of us are aware there is body rise only. Quote page 171. If foot rise is used, the flow of the figure will be seriously restricted."

Depends on which part you are dancing - if leader you use foot rise more often than as follower. But this is beside the point, because the earlier heel lowering is required in the body rise case, as it is in the body fall case.

"Trapping the moving leg. Do you really believe that both knees are bent."

Yes. It is very rare for the knees to be bent different amounts, except in picture lines (this is a fairly basic rule of dance technique). On lowering, when your standing leg bends your moving leg will soon start to bend as well. By the time you moving leg finally starts closing, both legs are quite bent.

"What would that look like."

The kind of dancing that wins Blackpool...

"How are you going to start the backward movement of the moving leg with the heel in contact with the floor if the leg is bent. Quote page 13. The foot is drawn back with the heel on the floor."

I'm talking about a case of fall, in which case it is the toe not the heel of the moving leg that is contact with the floor. You seem to still be confusing the level case (what the book discusses) with the fall case, where I said the books details are not entirely applicable.

"At the extent of the stride both legs are straight, the knees are not rigid."

True in some cases for some dancers - but beside the point because we are not talking about the extent of stride, but what happens as the body starts to move over the just placed foot.

"Please feel free to provide name of Technique book and page if it differs to any of this."

Same book you are using, but reading it a bit more carefully than you are.

"Example Waltz Natural Turn Commence to rise at the end of one. That means what it says. Not at the beginning of, or half way through, it means after step one is completed."

No, it means you commence (begin) before the end of step 1, not after (at the absolute latest, at the instant of foot passing)

"The heel must not touch the floor untill the moving leg is level with it. What will happen if the lowering is premature, The weight will move back onto the supporting heel too soon."

Quickstep's adive applies only to level walks, which are a great class exercise to introduce the idea but actually fairly rare in dancing. In actual dancing in cases of rise or fall it is necessary for the arriving heel to lower more quickly.

But look back at the posters original problem. Her partner is moving from his head/shoulders, instead of moving backward from his center. The main reason that (the lady) is cautioned not to lower her heel to early in a flat walk is that this will cause her center to surge back away from the man. However if the man is the one going backwards, and he's failing to create and sustain movement of his center, a little early dropping of the heel would not be much of a sin.

But that's all at the end of the step. The real issue is at the start of the step - getting the body to depart the standing foot "seat first". This is quite simply a push from the standing heel to the propel the hips backwards, which at least on the leader can safely coincide with a very minor lean forward. In short, it's a lot like starting to sit down - only instead of continuing down, you move across the floor, "seat" first.

Anonymous. I think if you hung a plumb line on Sqeezed partner you will find he is out of balance because he has allowing his weight to arrive to soon, most likely because he has lowered with the body weight already back. He obviously has no idea that as he extends backward there is a natural incline of the body forward which keeps the body weight over the supporting leg longer.
How would you rewrite this.
Backward Walk. Slowly lower the heel to the floor making sure the heel does not touch the floor untill the moving foot is level with it.
Rising end of step one Waltz. Before there is rise there is a point where the weight arrives under the body. Then you can turn and then you can commence to rise. This one part which is played around with between one couple and another.
A Backward Walk as in the Foxtrot. The heel of the front foot starts moving and becomes a ball not a toe.
The part which you most likely will not agree with is at the extent of the stride the front heel only is in contact with the floor. The toe of the back foot only is in contact with the floor. The body weight is divided equally between the two.
To continue. The heel of the front foot moves becoming a ball. As the foot arrives slowly lower the heel of the supporting to the floor making sure the heel does not touch the floor untill the moving foot is level with it.
What could be more simpler than that to understand.

"Anonymous. I think if you hung a plumb line on Sqeezed partner you will find he is out of balance because he has allowing his weight to arrive to soon, most likely because he has lowered with the body weight already back."

Let's stick to the known fact - he is failing to initiate the movement correctly. Any problem with arrival could only be addressed after the problem with departure is solved.

"How would you rewrite this.
Backward Walk. Slowly lower the heel to the floor making sure the heel does not touch the floor untill the moving foot is level with it."

I would not - it is accurate, it is just limited in its application to flat walks - it does not exactly apply to swing steps.

"Rising end of step one Waltz. Before there is rise there is a point where the weight arrives under the body."

I certainly hope your weight is always co-located with your body... so this sentance is gibberish.

"Then you can turn and then you can commence to rise."

No, there is no turn on step one, only commence to turn (CBM). Commence to rise as you arrive on step one - before you feet pass - this importance of this cannot be overestimated - it's critical to having real swing in your figure or only a broken stretch of some body parts while others remain level to the floor.

"This one part which is played around with between one couple and another."

Yes, many leave out this critical detail.

"A Backward Walk as in the Foxtrot. The heel of the front foot starts moving and becomes a ball not a toe."

Only if the heel was already on the ground. We had discussed a lowering step, in which case the heel of the closing foot would have started off the ground and will not touch the ground until it drew under the body.

"The part which you most likely will not agree with is at the extent of the stride the front heel only is in contact with the floor. The toe of the back foot only is in contact with the floor. The body weight is divided equally between the two."

Fine, except for this deadly mistake of splitting your weight. You should not be able to find any time there at all - really your weight is not supported at the middle of the stride by either foot.

"To continue. The heel of the front foot moves becoming a ball. As the foot arrives slowly lower the heel of the supporting to the floor making sure the heel does not touch the floor untill the moving foot is level with it."

Applicable only to the flat action... really you have to stop repeating this as if it is the solution to everything - it applies literally only to one specific, rarely danced step, the one with neither rise nor fall. But it is good practice to become familiar with that action as the starting point from which the modified actions of rising and falling steps derive.

"What could be more simpler than that to understand."

Yes, it's a good starting point. Unfortunately it is *too simple* to describe actual dancing - all you can do with that techinque is execute a series of flat walks with no rise and no fall. To dance, you have to make things more complicated by introducing the variation that is the rising case, and the variation that is the falling case.

Anonymous. I hope we are both writting about the International Style. I have never heard of a flat walk, if you can explain where this would fit into a Backward Walk.
Rise at the end of step one, and turn. Step one has gone, its history. The turn will be after that step and two. As I said , It's open to interpretation. Remember a step is just a step. It is the space between the two steps where we dance. This is any dance Latin, Tap, Gumboot dancing.
You've lost me here. The heel must lower to the floor as it becomes the supporting foot. Therefore the heel is in contact with the floor as it start its journy backwards.
The weight will momentarily be split. Its impossible to move from A to C without passing B and every position in between.
Don't forget we are discussing a Walk Backward in both Waltz, Foxtrot and Quickstep NFR ( no foot rise ) In the Waltz this applies to step one for the lady and step four in a Spin Turn or whatever for the man.
Foxtrot there is NFR on each and every step going backwards.To compliment the man who has foot rise on a Feather, the lady will stretch the body, as the man will in a Wave. I hope you are taking this in. This is what is learnt in a first class technique class, being taught by people who know what they are about.