"The teachers they go to are the who's who in ballroom dancing. If I want to know how John Wood places the lady in the correct position in the setup, all I have to do is ask."

The problem is quite simply this: until you personally take lessons with your teacher's teachers, you will be under the mistaken impression that what you are hearing from your accomplished but second rate teacher is the same as what they are being taught.

It isn't!!!

Once you start taking occasional lessons with your teacher's teachers and similar, you will discover that someting gets lost each time the message is repeated. Your teacher is probably a great resource - but not enough. You need to consult with his or her teacher now and then to get the ultimate truth - or as I should say, as much of it as anyone has yet discovered.

Anonymous. Exactly what I would have expected from you. If you get stuck you play the same record over and over again. You use the same jargon that a soliciter uses if they get stuck.So climb out of this one. The dicussion was a Backward Walk in the Foxtrot When you wrote. A backward lowering step TH must become flat before the departing foot retacts.
No visiting Professional would have told you this. You completely misunderstood. If you would like to know I can tell you where your misunderstanding took place.
I'm still trying to figure out what you meant by. One must not make the mistake of leaving the centre of the weight over the standing or even the standing foot. John Wood gives a demonstration of how some people stay in the middle and do not move from foot to foot. Very beginner like. Try this . Take one walk forward with the right leg, then lift the LF off the floor. You are fully commited to the right leg and foot. which is as you should be as the foot comes along side.
Then we have your idea that at the full extension of our stride backwards or forward our weight is not equally divided betwen the heel of the front foot and the toe of the back foot
with both knees straight. Your mistake is of course as above. If you lower your heel before your front foot moves. That is why you have no balanced split weight. In your usual manner you will of course say the technique book is wrong. You have no alternative or admitt you have it wrong.
Just write that out again for me. That is the Backward Walk in the Foxtrot as it is taught, and your version please.

"The dicussion was a Backward Walk in the Foxtrot When you wrote. A backward lowering step TH must become flat before the departing foot retacts."

Well a backwards walk is not a lowering action, but other than that...

"No visiting Professional would have told you this."

Wrong - a visiting champion is exactly who told me this!

"You completely misunderstood."

I don't think so. You see he was literally standing on the toe of my departed foot at the time - the insistence on not retracting it yet was rather hard to mistake!

"I'm still trying to figure out what you meant by. One must not make the mistake of leaving the centre of the weight over the standing or even the standing foot. John Wood gives a demonstration of how some people stay in the middle and do not move from foot to foot."

Of course. But the next step in thje evolution of smooth movement beyond moving cleanly from foot to foot is to move right on through until your weight is beyond the standing foot - before the new foot has even passed the standing one. You were on the right track, you just haven't fully developed the idea yet.

"Take one walk forward with the right leg, then lift the LF off the floor. You are fully commited to the right leg and foot. which is as you should be as the foot comes along side."

No, you should already be beyond the standing foot before the moving foot passes it.

"That is why you have no balanced split weight."

Your mistake is in thinking that you will. Doing so kills the continuity of motion in your dancing - if you have weight on a foot that is in front of you, then by definition you are wasting energy, because that weight pushes as a brake against your travel. Simply geometry.. which is completely misunderstood by many - some of them even famous dancers.

"Just write that out again for me. That is the Backward Walk in the Foxtrot as it is taught, and your version"

Since you are going to raise the same ignorant objectsion as before, why don't we save time and each refer the other to our previous post??

Anonymous. A visiting champion told you this. He was literally standing on your toe. You were doing step four of a Natural in the Waltz which is different to a Backward Walk in the Foxtrot.
So you project your weight past your standing foot do you. Is that on step one of a Natural in the Waltz. Do you really go beyond your now standing leg with no collection point. Is that before or after you swing on two.
If you can't write or quote from the technique book. I'll do it for you.
On a Backward Walk the heel of the supporting foot does not lower untill the moving foot is level with it. I'll write that again. Making sure that it doesn't touch the floor untill the moving foot is level with it.
I believe you said that I, that's me, completely misunderstood what was written, or words to that effect. Now you tell me what does that say.
Have you ever passed a medal test. It might explain why you get so many weird ideas. If you missed that early grounding. Did you throw yourself straight into the deep end.
This would apply to anyone. If you bypass the medals and go into competition without that early grounding it will show in your dancing. And your knowledge of the steps will also suffer. In theory and on Steven Hannah's tape, former British Champion. If the lowering is premeture your front knee will straighten and the toe will stick up into the air. The hip will then have to lift to allow the moving leg and foot through. This is as well as falling away from your partner. Try it
and see for yourselves. Can you stay with your partner and lower early. I think not.

"Anonymous. A visiting champion told you this. He was literally standing on your toe. You were doing step four of a Natural in the Waltz which is different to a Backward Walk in the Foxtrot."

I said a lowering backwards action. And did I not just point out in the post you are responding to that a WALK is not a lowering action??? However, I seem to recall that you had some difficulty telling the difference between a walk done as an exercise without rise or fall, and the walks modified by rise and fall that are foxtrot. That no-rise/no-fall case rarely occurs in dancing!

"Do you really go beyond your now standing leg with no collection point."

In many cases there should be no point where everything is collected at once. By the time the feet are collected, the body is already past the standing foot.

"Is that before or after you swing on two."

It is during the swing, but before the foot has been placed for step two (because it is just passing the standing foot).

"On a Backward Walk the heel of the supporting foot does not lower untill the moving foot is level with it."

That's the case without rise or fall, which RARELY OCCURS IN DANCING. It is an exercise, with only a small number of places where it is actually used in the dance as a connector. Most dance actions, be they forward or backward, are modified by the act of rising or falling, or by being steady at an alititude incompatible with a a literal application of the above technique.

But as an exercise, it's a good starting point. Just try not to take it literally in places where it DOES NOT APPLY.

"If the lowering is premeture your front knee will straighten and the toe will stick up into the air."

Then don't straighten your front knee..

"The hip will then have to lift to allow the moving leg and foot through."

Nope. You have these accessories called "knees". Learn to use them. Flexing the knee of the moving foot lets it fit through just fine.

"This is as well as falling away from your partner."

That will only occur if you mis-time your movement. It is not a mandatory result of changing the sequence of actions by which you move.

Anonymous. On the Feather Step for the lady there is no rise and fall through the feet They all have NFR. The body will stretch because the man does have foot rise.Three Step is the same. One noteable difference is for the mans step four of the Reverse. There is foot rise there. The man is required to be on his two toes at the end of step four with his weight equally divided between four and five, split weight.

"Anonymous. On the Feather Step for the lady there is no rise and fall through the feet They all have NFR."

Yet there is still rise, even though not in the feet!

Anonymous. I think I remember that post. You were saying something about a flat walk and a walk with rise and fall. And I said I have never heard of it. Body rise for the lady is never spoken about because she can't help but rise because of the swing on two and three plus the sway to her left by the man
You can't keep the knee bent and lower early. You would have to sit to do it that way. I wish you would get up and try it before writting. Also you will not be able to get into that split weight position correctly. Also your toe will be looking skywards With a heal down and the knee flexed you will have to lift your hip to get the foot through.
Do you or don't you beleive there is a collection point. Collection being when every thing is under the body still moving but under the body.Probably ready to flex the supporting knee and drive onto the next step even on an ordinary Change Step in the Waltz .After the first step. Or better still do a series of Change Steps.This is how it is being taught. Step bring the rear foot under the body . Flex the standing knee and drive onto step two.Going Baackwards the same except for the NFR on one..

"Anonymous. I think I remember that post. You were saying something about a flat walk and a walk with rise and fall. And I said I have never heard of it. "

Time you start thinking about it then!

"Body rise for the lady is never spoken about because she can't help but rise because of the swing on two and three plus the sway to her left by the man"

Time to start thinking about what happens when she lowers from this body rise! It will change her foot timing of course.

"You can't keep the knee bent and lower early. You would have to sit to do it that way."

Bingo! Lowering backwards usually has a limited component of "sitting down" to it. Of course you don't want to pull away from your partner.

"Also you will not be able to get into that split weight position correctly."

You aren't supposed to be in split weight... If you are still trying to do that, it explains why none of this technique is making any sense to you. Go ahead, keep shooting yourself in the foot!

"Also your toe will be looking skywards With a heal down and the knee flexed you will have to lift your hip to get the foot through."

No, with the knee flexed the toe and not the heel of the departed foot would be on the floor, and there is no need to lift the hip later to take it through. Obviuosly you haven't tried this yet.

"Do you or don't you beleive there is a collection point. Collection being when every thing is under the body still moving but under the body."

By that definition, no - because different parts pass through their neutral positions in space and/or rotation at a different points in time.

"Probably ready to flex the supporting knee and drive onto the next step even on an ordinary Change Step in the Waltz .After the first step. Or better still do a series of Change Steps.This is how it is being taught. Step bring the rear foot under the body . Flex the standing knee and drive onto step two.Going Baackwards the same except for the NFR on one.."

Crude, very approximate. Get some real lessons...

Anonymous.Do you ever practise Backward Walks. How can lowering the body possibly affect your timing.The stretching of the body is no big deal. If you can take the left LF back and lower the heel and keep it down flex the knee and extend the RF back to the toe, not the ball, but back to the toe. The ladies body rise will happen without even thinking about it. Add to that Sway, nothing more is required.
Whilst we are onto the extending to the toe. Lets think about going to the point of imbalance which you are always on about.If you were to on a Forward Step make sure that the rear toe is actually is a toe and not just a ball, and use it. All your problems would disapeare in an instant.
Split weight. Old book new book. As the RF passes the toe of the LF, the left heel will be released from the floor,so that at the full extent of the stride the ball of the LF and the heel of the RF will be touching the floor. In the actual walk the weight is first on the stationary foot. At the full extent of the stride it is divided for a moment between the heel of the front foot and the ball of the back foot.
In the book according to Anonymous. How will you rewrite the above.
In a rotation there will still be a neutral point.First three of a Natural will do.Failure to do this will mean the opportunity to able to flex the right knee will be lost and as Richard Gleave said the following step to the side wil be very ordinary. Which he aptly demonstrates.
On a Feather Step Foxtrot there is also a collection point after the third step on the count of 4 and. And being the collection point . Enough for now.