""More importantly, the difference in the position of step 5 between the two figures is quite minimal."

Step 5 in the Natural Turn is a toe (as side steps often are) and in the NST is a heel lead to a toe (as forward steps often are). The difference is not minimal. In fact, it is critical."

I wouldn't say otherwise. But you've just changed the topic from the subject of what you had previously posted and quoted my reply to, which was about the position of the step to the action of the step, which is a different topic entirely.

"It is different because the relationship of the standing foot to the direction of movement is different in each step - assuming that you execute each step correctly."

The real difference is the difference in relationship between the standing foot and the body. In a pivot the foot turns much more in unison with the body. In a spin turn, the foot turns primarily as it is placed and as it is departed, while the body turns throughout.

""If the man allows his leg to rotate without his body, . . .

I never claimed that a man would do such a thing."

Actually, this is the source of the "ugly" result you cite.

"". . . the man's body turns has (sic) he moves over his standing left foot, which keeps his right leg properly associated with his body."

There is a huge difference between the rotation of the body to effect CBM and the turning of the body to execute a pivot."

Indeed. The spin turn uses the former. A true pivot uses the later.

"Also, the association of the standing foot is as important - if not moreso - than that of the moving foot."

Actually, it's not. One of the key skills of a good dancer - and one that takes the longest to develop - is the ability to project the body away from the weight bearing foot - to depart that association in order to keep the body more associated with the moving foot. Many casual dancers never learn this, and suffer extremely in their capability for its lack.

""This is far superior match to the action of step 5 than making the majority of the turn by spinning the left foot on the floor."

No, it isn't It's just easier for you to execute and it's more difficult for the woman."

No. It's actually much easier for her. By developing his body over his left foot more than pivoting the foot, the man is in a much better position to enable the lady's rising toe spin on step 5 - in effect to swing his energy up from underneath. If he instead danced a true pivot, he would constrain the fullness of her step 5 and she would find it easier to dance a heel turn or a pivot instead - which is why that is what he does in the running right turn or in a series of consecutive driving pivots.

No, it is not different. Whether a step is sideways or forward depends on its direction relative to the body's position. The action of the step generally reflects that direction. For example, you're not going to use a heel lead in a side step.

Much the rest of this response is just slack verbiage. I'll deal with the two signficant points.


All figures in Standard - including the pivot - use CBM. Your statement is meaningless.

Your last paragraph could be used in a text about how to dance poorly.

The pivot is completed in Step 4. Because the man's orientation is then directly forward instead of somewhat sideways, there is nothing whatsoever to "constrain the fullness of [the lady's] Step 5."

If the man does not pivot correctly on step 4 then step 5 will not be down LOD as it should. The man cannot complete Step 5 with CBM alone from Step 4 of a Natural Turn. Doing so would make Step 5 difficult to turn fully. By completing the pivot and facing down LOD - or even nearly facing that way - the man can lead Step 5 in as full a turn as he wishes.

As I've pointed out previously, your complaints about the pivot in this move clearly indicate that you simply have not been taught to perform one correctly. I'll admit that, for some dancers, keeping the proper poise during a pivot can be intimidating.

It's also apparent that you have no idea how to lead one. That's what doing pro/am will get you.

jj

"No, it is not different. Whether a step is sideways or forward depends on its direction relative to the body's position. The action of the step generally reflects that direction. For example, you're not going to use a heel lead in a side step."

It remains a different topic, as rather obviously demonstrated by the fact that a forward step can be onto either the heel or the toe.

"The pivot is completed in Step 4. Because the man's orientation is then directly forward instead of somewhat sideways, there is nothing whatsoever to "constrain the fullness of [the lady's] Step 5.""

Completing the pivot is precisely what will constrain the fullness of the lady's action, as it forces her to depart the unrisen right foot backwards, yet the footwork requires that she do so from her toe which results in a a weak action wisely avoided by dancers of any real practical experience. The strong choices are to depart the right foot substantially forwards from the inside edge of toe, as is done on step 4 of the natural or a well executed spin turn, or to depart the right foot backwards from the heel, as is done in a natural pivot turn or consecutive driving pivots.

A skilled lady dances towards step 5 with a forwards action, which evolves to backwards only as she arrives. Completing the pivot prevents her from doing this. Many very capable ladies get surprised when they see the book's description of the step direction, not realizing that it describes the end result rather than the action which is to be used to achieve it.

"If the man does not pivot correctly on step 4 then step 5 will not be down LOD as it should. The man cannot complete Step 5 in this manner with CBM alone from Step 4 of a Natural Turn."

In the contemporary technique it is step 4 that is literally given as down the LOD, not step 5, though older reference had this the other way. In practice, the desired placement of lady's step 5 is accomplished by a combination of the man's turn in and sideways displacement of step 4, with the cbm. Frankly a lot of the top guys are stepping further to the side on step 4 than I find optimal for enabling the lady, but neither they nor I find substantially pivoting our foot advantageous.

"Doing so would make Step 5 difficult to turn fully."

Nonsense. There is no problem achieving any of the desired amounts of turn, from severe underturn to severe overturn.

"By completing the pivot and facing down LOD - or even nearly facing that way - the man can lead Step 5 in as full a turn as he wishes."

Sure, but only by drastically weakening the power of the step 5 action, compared to what can be achieved by not overturning the foot on step 4. By underturning the foot during step 4, skilled dancers are able to incorporate the "have a side left to swing" power mechanism into their spin turn.

"As I've pointed out previously, your complaints about the pivot in this move clearly indicate that you simply have not been taught to perform one correctly."

On the contrary, I'm well versed in the difference between a good spin turn and a good pivot, and the finer variations thereof, such as pivot sequences modified by rise and fall, which you still fail to understand.

"It's also quite apparent that you have no idea how to lead one. That's what doing pro/am will get you."

I have never done pro/am, but I've helped many male students better understand how to lead a nice spin turn, by leading them through the lady's action of one so that they can feel the difference between her experience when the man enables the fullness of her action, vs when he constrains it by overturning step 4.

The woman departs from Step 4 upwards and to the left more than backwards. Heather demonstrates this action nicely on the video. After all, the purpose of the NST is to turn and not to travel.

But you misunderstand the footwork directions for this step. HT in this case means that the woman must keep her weight on the ball of her foot for the pivot. You seem to think that the heel is raised on this step; it is not.


She does so only if she does the step incorrectly. The woman's Step 5 of the NST is not equivalent to the man's Step 2 of the Natural Turn.

Also, if she executes the step as you describe, she would have to have some pivoting action on her standing foot anyway during Step 4.


The Alignment direction for Step 5 for the man is "Facing LOD." End of discussion.

You apparently believe that the strength of a step is directly related to its length of stride, reflecting a very narrow - and incorrect - understanding of the Waltz. A strong step - or figure - is one that is danced correctly from head to toe. A wing or a back whisk can be as strong as any other figure.

Remember, the Waltz is rotational. Dancing the NST with the proper pivot produces a much more rotational display than doing it badly just for the sake of taking long steps (which I've noticed that poor dancers will often try to use as a substitute for good technique).

jj

"the woman departs from Step 4 upwards and to the left more than backwards."

If you don't overturn it she can do this. If you do overturn it, she can't, which weakens the action.

"After all, the purpose of the NST is to turn and not to travel."

Most real dancers would consider it a progressive step - especially given how much more popular the overturned version leading into a continuation such as a turning lock to right is than the underturned variety, and the degree to which variations such as a running spin turn nearly equal actual spin turns in popularity.

"But you misunderstand the footwork directions for this step. HT in this case means that the woman must keep her weight on the ball of her foot for the pivot. You seem to think that the heel is raised on this step; it is not."

It need only be raised slightly to avoid catching, but by completing the pivot she achieves a foot alignment where her strongest action would be to drive backwards off of her heel - as indeed she does do in the natural pivot turn. The written footwork of the spin turn prohibits her from taking advantage of that opportunity. Which strongly suggest that this is not how a spin turn should actually be danced. And indeed, common practice is... surprise! not to dance it with a complete pivot!

"She does so only if she does the step incorrectly. The woman's Step 5 of the NST is not equivalent to the man's Step 2 of the Natural Turn."

Nobody said it was. But her step four of the natural spin turn is a lot closer to her step four of the natural turn than you are ready to accept. Fortunately, your acceptance is not a requirement for real dancers to take advantage of this.

"Also, if she executes the step as you describe, she would have to have some pivoting action on her standing foot anyway during Step 4."

Some rotation, yes. But nowhere near 180 degrees.

""It is step 4 that is literally given as down the LOD, not step 5"

The Alignment direction for Step 5 for the man is "Facing LOD." End of discussion."

Alignment and direction are two different things. Further note that the alignment of one step is not necessarily the alignment or direction of the previous. In fact my foot alignment as my step five becomes a heel and takes weight is facing LOD. But it doesn't achieve that before hand.

"You apparently believe that the strength of a step is directly related to its length of stride, reflecting a very narrow - and incorrect - understanding of the Waltz. A strong step - or figure - is one that is danced correctly from head to toe. A wing or a back whisk can be as strong as any other figure."

There is a world of difference between choosing to make something smaller than you could because that better fits what you are trying to achieve, and being unable to make something as full as musicality and context demand. The former is called "looking competent". The latter is called "looking weak".

"Remember, the Waltz is rotational."

Only secondarily. The actual rotary waltz was supplanted before the invention of modern ballroom dancing. the ballroom waltz is composed of body rotations superimposed on what is in most cases a fairly linear travel from peak of rise to peak of rise.

"Dancing the NST with the proper pivot produces a much more rotational display than doing it badly just for the sake of taking long steps (which I've noticed that poor dancers will often try to use as a substitute for good technique)."

Well you are welcome to do whatever you like. The rest of us will do what's proved to work far better. Funny that those guys keep "reverting" to doing it the more naturally flowing way once they get out of artificial lecture mode and back to using their experience as dancers.

"Do you really lower your right toe all the way to the floor while mid-pivot, or are you just talking more about relaxing the foot in such a way that it might lower slightly toward the floor?"

On a spin turn I do lower so that the foot comes through on the inside edge of toe, because a spin turn is not a complete pivot but only partially pivot-like. (This difference between spin turns and true pivots is often overlooked, but it's actually present in the book - notice for example the difference in the lady's written footwork HT for the spin turn, HTH for the pivot turn).

On a true pivot, as in a repeated sequence of them, I do not.

Lady does not dance a pivot in either a Spin Turn or a Pivot Turn. In both cases they are a pivoting action.

But the spin turn is not the same action as in the more obvious pivot / pivoting action steps. And again, the difference is evident in that the lady's footwork is different from the steps with a true pivot / pivoting action combination.

Whenever one partner's footwork changes, it's certain that there are changes in the details of action in the other partner as well - even if those changes don't amount to a different footwork "code". Nothing in dancing occurs in isolation - it's all interdependent.

What a silly discussion.

A natural pivot is clearly described in standard technique, and there isn't more than one variety. A Spin Turn is a good example (Step 4, as man), but it is very often badly danced.

Man dances straight back (not side), with stong CBM and toe turned in, making 1/2 turn on the ball of foot (THT), before continuing to turn on RF, having stepped straight forward (not side) (HT). The RF is held in CBMP between those steps. There's not a lot more to say, except that there is a lot of hot air in here, and will someone please open a window.

"A natural pivot is clearly described in standard technique, and there isn't more than one variety. A Spin Turn is a good example (Step 4, as man), but it is very often badly danced."

Unfortunately for your theory, the given details of step four of the spin turn do not match the given details of step four of the natural pivot turn. The latter includes pivot in its name so it is obviously one. The former is related to the action of a pivot, but not exactly so.

"Man dances straight back (not side)"

In theory, but otherwise in practice. Often too far otherwise in my opinion, but necessarily somewhat.

"making 1/2 turn on the ball of foot"

less in practice

"having stepped straight forward (not side)"

Initially side as the rotation is not yet complete, but ending up in the direction that would have been forward had 180 degrees of turn actually been danced.

Just a few of the difference between oversimplified literalism and practical dance skills...